ATF license and a vacation home or another shoot site.

[displayfireworks1]

I recently helped a fireworks enthusiast get licensed that lives in one state and wants to shoot in another site over 1500 plus miles away. Is he eligible to get ATF licensed? Over the years in helping fireworks enthusiast get ATF licensed I enjoy spending more time and energy on licensing circumstances that are rare and/or unusual. These unusual circumstances meet criteria for becoming licensed but are not so readily accepted by the ATF regional offices particularly in locations that have low ATF license holders. Notice I didn't say "State" because a state has nothing to do with it.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnXtt9Pqgwo
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[Salutecake]

So Dave, I know you know more than most of us on this subject, but I believe if you apply for a federal license, if granted, it should be good on a federal level. My only experience, with my inspector, I mentioned going to NY from PA, and that seemed to put up like red flags in the conversation so I imediately dropped it.
The problem I see, but should have nothing to do with a license, are different regulations. Just as an example, if Idaho had the same set up as PA, and some one would grant contigency storage, and I have a license in from PA, why not?
I know people will jump on this, but in PA, depending upon what county you live in, a conceal carry permit can usually be obtained fairly easy. The problem you might run into is pressure from big city cops, like Pittsburg and Philly, where they might and at times give you a hard time if they find out you have a conceal carry permit. The end result is that license is issued by a county but is really a state license so cities can't really do much to you, now there are rules, like you can't carry on federal property or into schools, but that's part of the license. It's also like a licensed insurance agent going door to door and being stopped when a community puts up a sign like No Soliciting without a permitt, well you really don't need a permitt in PA because you are licensed by the state.

Anyway, to me, a Federal license should have nothing to do with the state when applying or being issued, but you will most likely have to abide to state and local rules to use your license.

[BMoore]

Inspectors always ask me where I’ll be shooting and my honest answer is always “I’m not sure at this time.” Yes, I have friends property that I shoot on but it’s not like I have a contract with them. They could change their mind and I’d have to explore other options. I also don’t know what new opportunities might arise. What about things like open shoots, etc? Maybe I’ll take a year off. It’s a fluid situation. What the ATF should really want to know is whether or not you’ve thought things through and are capable of being legal. Like anything else, if you start giving too many details you could inadvertently open a can of worms.

[Engineer Cat]

When I had my interview I just put USA for area I would be transporting to and from. The agent had me change it to NJ / PA and I asked if that limits me to only transporting in those states. He said it does not. I can transport anyplace in the USA, however since you can't keep product unattended overnight your limited to where you can travel with it unless you can arrange for contingency at the location you plan to stay overnight before continuing your trip.

Personally I wouldn't of even bother mentioning the vacation home cause it doesn't really matter. Look at everyone who travels to PGI n the middle of country. Many people are flying in and arranging to purchase product at the location. This doesn't break the rules at all and it's pretty much the same if going to a vacation home and purchasing producte there to shoot on the property.

[displayfireworks1]

When I had my interview I just put USA for area I would be transporting to and from. The agent had me change it to NJ / PA and I asked if that limits me to only transporting in those states. He said it does not. I can transport anyplace in the USA, however since you can't keep product unattended overnight your limited to where you can travel with it unless you can arrange for contingency at the location you plan to stay overnight before continuing your trip.

Personally I wouldn't of even bother mentioning the vacation home cause it doesn't really matter. Look at everyone who travels to PGI n the middle of country. Many people are flying in and arranging to purchase product at the location. This doesn't break the rules at all and it's pretty much the same if going to a vacation home and purchasing producte there to shoot on the property.

Once you are licensed you can do those sort of things you mentioned. Problem for this gentleman I was working with. He first needed licensed. He could not do that from his primary residence state because there is no where near him to purchase 1.3 fireworks and obtain the contingency agreement . However, there is a distributor near the secondary home and the shoot site agreeable to giving a contingency agreement (Thanks to my help) . The shoot site location and the reasonable distance to the PA distributor is good enough reason to get licensed to purchase. Who actually owns the home does not matter. It is rather abstract in a way, Its similar to how you got licensed living in New Jersey and shooting in Pennsylvania. Because this is at the Federal level and not the State level , United States at the Federal level is now one big state and that includes its territories,

[Salutecake]

Hey Dave, so if i was in commerce and got a contract for a show let's say in the middle of any state with no supplier or contigency storage around, would my budget rent a truck with my own supplies, then serve as my storage place? Providing distances and some type of person watching the stuff all the time? Like a regular show would be and the only point of contingency storage could be your own back yard or your supplier. I mean it seems that us as hobbyist seemed to get quized by the ATF about storage and distances, so do companies get quized on those things?

[displayfireworks1]

Years ago when you did a commercial display in another state away from the facility where you picked up the fireworks you arranged what was termed a “Safe Haven”. This was a location both you and the town agreed to leave the loaded truck unattended. The town usually arranged for the police to occasionally monitor the vehicle throughout the night. When I took my last CDL Explosive Hazmat recertification test in Pennsylvania. It still makes mention of a “Safe Haven” in the training manual. Those days are gone. That Safe Haven does not fly with the ATF except under a written variance last I heard. If granted the variance list specific things that need done, for example Club the steering wheel etc. I heard someone in the industry mention a sure fire way to get the ATF to show up at a shoot site is to ask for a variance. LOL
I suspect however the Safe Haven is still in practice out there. The correct way is to do what I did in my one video. I’ll time mark it here 40:54 if time link does not que up.
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https://youtu.be/okwXwVNN65g?t=2454

My opinion on the contingency storage agreement in theory it is all BS. Why ? If you apply it to a professional display company working out of a single storage location that would mean they could only do fireworks displays that are a reasonable driving distance away that they can safely return the product back to their storage in the event of a rainout or cancelation. Once they are four states away what is their contingency plan? Shouldn’t we as hobbyist also be able to enjoy that same contingency plan when applying for a license. This is probably why “contingency” is so vaguely addressed in the regs. It has a broad meaning in my opinion.

[Engineer Cat]

Great information Dave. Good thread here.

[Salutecake]

Thanks for that Dave.

I'm not looking for an answer but I wonder what rules or lack of rules are followed when transporting a container from China? I know a lot of fireworks, to get to the east coast distributors, come across the pacific, through the Panama canal, lets say to New Orleans, up to Michiagan by rail, then trucked to distrubution places. I was just wondeering how all this handled, what happens to security in the shipyards, or on a train?

[displayfireworks1]

On a side note you speaking of the Panama Canal, I learned just the other day it is actually fresh water and not salt water. You would think just cut an opening on either end and let the water flow through. LOL There is some concern with the amount of rainfall in that area having an effect on shipping cost and time delays. Apparently it is above sea level.
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As far as fireworks coming from China to your local distributor there is whole list of different rules. I am not verse in those off the top of my head. Some may be created by the shipping companies. I believe only a percentage of the cargo may be explosive (15%) and it must be topside. Initially some of regulations were changed for the railroads because they refused to transport explosives because they could not guarantee clean background checks on all their employees around the shipments as initially required. It was changed along the way to accommodate the railroads. I believe the rail cars need placard and that sort of thing. Not sure if someone that works for the railroad is one the forums , but they could probably explain it.

[Salutecake]

Interesting, thanks.