Fingerprint Cards

[Knightmare]

I am trying to get an ATF license.

The only thing stopping me are the fingerprint cards.

They have to be for explosives which they are unavailable right now.

Is there anywhere these can be ordered? I couldn't find the correct ones on Amazon or anywhere else.

[Engineer Cat]

You requested them from the ATF and they said they aren't available?

[Engineer Cat]

My local law enforcement told me to they don't fingerprints the public so I went to a place called Identigo (https://www.identogo.com/) and payed $22 to get them done. I had cards that the ATF sent me but they had the identical cards there. The only difference was the ones I had already had the ATF info on them. I don't think you would have a problem sending one without that info on it. The guy said since you have cards I'll just print them on those.
6747

[Knightmare]

My local law enforcement told me to they don't fingerprints the public so I went to a place called Identigo (https://www.identogo.com/) and payed $22 to get them done. I had cards that the ATF sent me but they had the identical cards there. The only difference was the ones I had already had the ATF info on them. I don't think you would have a problem sending one without that info on it. The guy said since you have cards I'll just print them on those.
6747

I have one of those completed for firearms.

But,

You see where the O.R.I. is?

Mine says something different.

It needs to read:

WVATF0900
ATF-FED EXPL LIC CTR
MARTINSBURG, WV

[Knightmare]

You requested them from the ATF and they said they aren't available?

They were ordered eight times from their website.

Nothing ever came here.

They're unavailable.

I am still shooting Class B even without a license.

Trust me, I know exactly what I'm doing.

The trouble you have to go through getting a license makes it seem worthless.

It's all over these stupid fingerprint cards.

[JP87]

Are you able to print some envelope address labels? The cards I used were for the firearms division as well. I just printed a label with the correct ORI info and stuck it right over the top. A few years ago when submitting fingerprints for a firearm application I had to do the opposite. The cards had the FELC ORI and put the firearms division ORI over the top of it. Never had any issues.

[BMoore]

I recommend calling the office in Martinsburg. They are usually very helpful. I find it hard to believe they are truly unavailable. It's just a standard FD-258 card with the ATF Stamp. You can order FD-258 cards right off Amazon. You could probably order FD-258 cards off Amazon and fill in the ORI info yourself but call and ask for instructions first. I guarantee that the ATF application process including the vetting of employee possessors is not on hold because they ran out of cards.

[Engineer Cat]

When I got home today I had a packet from them with the orange book and a bunch of forms to fill out if any 1.3 items are lost or stolen and there was one piece of paper stating Form F5400.4 is on back order and I should try at a later date to get them. SO maybe they are indeed unavailable. That form is for Limited Permittee Transaction Report.

[displayfireworks1]

To clear a few things up. Unless something has changed Employee Possessors do not need to provide fingerprints . Again unless something has changed the ATF has a specific fingerprint card that looks very similar to the FBI card except it specifies explosive. Depending on who you talk to in Martinsburg WV , they only want the card specifically marked Explosive. The "Explosive" fingerprint cards are shipped out of an ATF distribution center. I doubt the local ATF office or even Martinsburg WV has them. I suspect they did not anticipate July 4th demand and did not order enough paper forms and cards accordingly. You would think at this point in time of the digital age the application process would include some form of digital or any fingerprint card as an accepted form.
Over the years the ATF Distribution Center has always been cooperative in providing the required "Forms" and fingerprint cards. They are not like Amazon and two day delivery , it just takes longer than we are used to. This is why I tell ATF license applicants to start this process well in advance of July 4th. For those that purchase my ATF/DVD application package I include this official card to avoid this very issue.

[Smily0]

To clear a few things up. Unless something has changed Employee Possessors do not need to provide fingerprints

I did my employee possessor form in June and did not have to send fingerprints.

[BMoore]

Correct that employee possessors do not require fingerprinting. I must have had a brain fart when I said that. I still say the fingerprint cards are standard FD-258 cards. In fact the instructions specifically request FD-258 with no mention of a specific version. Most ATF forms are available to download. I think calling and asking how to proceed is the best course of action. It would be nice if they would move to digital fingerprinting. The outdated ink fingerprinting process seems to be a stumbling block to some extent for just about everybody. Maybe that’s by design.

[Knightmare]

News Update

They finally came today.

I got my fingerprints all done.

I have a question.

They accidentally put an extra letter on my city location.

Why, I have no idea!

Will this be alright?

For example, let's say I am from Pittsburgh.

They put a letter L after Pittsburgh.

[Engineer Cat]

Correct that employee possessors do not require fingerprinting. I must have had a brain fart when I said that. I still say the fingerprint cards are standard FD-258 cards. In fact the instructions specifically request FD-258 with no mention of a specific version. Most ATF forms are available to download. I think calling and asking how to proceed is the best course of action. It would be nice if they would move to digital fingerprinting. The outdated ink fingerprinting process seems to be a stumbling block to some extent for just about everybody. Maybe that’s by design.

They accept digital fingerprints. The ones I had done were done on a digital fingerprint scanner and printing onto the form. No issues as long as you get them done at professional place where the person who takes them signs off on the card.

[displayfireworks1]

At Knightmare: at least they didn't forget to put the "h" in Pittsburgh. LOL These applications are not like test papers , don't worry about little typos .
.
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At Engineer Cat: Where you had the prints done was the machine able to accept the official ATF fingerprint card and print directly onto it? Did it all line up correctly ? Or did they print your prints onto one of their own generic cards?

[Knightmare]

Just for making sure I am sending this to the correct location, where do you mail your completed application materials?

[Knightmare]

Sorry for double posting.

I have this address:

BATFE
Federal Explosives Licensing Center
PO BOX 6200-18
Portland, Oregon 97228-6200

This is correct right?

Thanks for all the help from everyone here.

David - Your forum is awesome!

[displayfireworks1]

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives
Federal Explosives Licensing Center
PO Box 6200-18
Portland, OR 97228-6200


It must be some sort of an ATF clearing house for incoming. This is where they all go. Then they get the information to ATF Martinsburg WV , then to your regional ATF . You application will process out of Pittsburgh . Pennsylvania is one of the highest privately held ATF User of Display Fireworks states. Things should go smooth for you. Once you see they processed your payment , answer all phone calls and knocks at the door.

[Engineer Cat]

At Knightmare: at least they didn't forget to put the "h" in Pittsburgh. LOL These applications are not like test papers , don't worry about little typos .
.
.
At Engineer Cat: Where you had the prints done was the machine able to accept the official ATF fingerprint card and print directly onto it? Did it all line up correctly ? Or did they print your prints onto one of their own generic cards?

Yes they had the exact same cards and the template on their computer for it. He first did a test print on one of the ones he had and had me confirm everything was correct. The only difference was his didn't have ATF code and address. But it was identical. Then he printed them on the cards I brought with me.

[displayfireworks1]

At Engineer Cat: Whatever service you used, we should rate and recommend them highly. In addition whoever the employee was at that location that day was certainly competent using the equipment it sounds like. This is good news. Thus, now we know the technology is out there to scan and print in format to a supplied ATF Explosive fingerprint card by some of these fee for service fingerprint service companies.
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On a side note for research purposes would be great to see what make and model of fingerprint machine was used. In the future when an ATF User of Display Fireworks seeks out this service we can call and say, something along the lines of, do you use Fingerprint Machine , Make and Model XXX etc. ? Then future applicants can say : "That is great you have the proper equipment to scan and print to my official ATF card" ... This theory does not include a fully competent advanced user on duty of the full capacities of the yet unknown model of fingerprint machine. LOL

[Engineer Cat]

At Engineer Cat: Whatever service you used, we should rate and recommend them highly. In addition whoever the employee was at that location that day was certainly competent using the equipment it sounds like. This is good news. Thus, now we know the technology is out there to scan and print in format to a supplied ATF Explosive fingerprint card by some of these fee for service fingerprint service companies.
.
On a side note for research purposes would be great to see what make and model of fingerprint machine was used. In the future when an ATF User of Display Fireworks seeks out this service we can call and say, something along the lines of, do you use Fingerprint Machine , Make and Model XXX etc. ? Then future applicants can say : "That is great you have the proper equipment to scan and print to my official ATF card" ... This theory does not include a fully competent advanced user on duty of the full capacities of the yet unknown model of fingerprint machine. LOL

So I'm an IT consultant by trade for 25 years so I have hands on experience with many aspects of IT and particular peripherals that conned to a PC via USB or other means to make it do things. This fingerprint scanner was pretty much just a high resolution scanner. It wasn't a single finger devise like a bio metric reader to log you into the computer or enter a door, it was large enough were you can scan 4 fingerprints minus the thumb, at one time. Like this. 6749 He scanned all 10 prints individually then did the left 4 fingers at the same time and the right 4 at the same time and then the thumbs individually again. The key to this is the scanning software as it was making points on parts of my prints as he was rolling my finger around the scanner while the software was noting how many points of references it picked up to make a complete print.

The company is Identigo (https://www.identogo.com/) and they have places across the USA. It cost $22. Here are the locations they have just in PA alone. 6748. You can find locations on their website and book an appointment from there as well. That's what I did here in NJ, (There was a location on the other side of town 6 mins away). Took maybe 15 mins to complete.

[Engineer Cat]

I use to think that the feds are looking at every possible excuse to deny you the ability to get the 54 permit. However that is not true at all. (unless your a criminal or did something that flags you during a background check). Maybe an agent or a clerk wants to be a dick and say this comma is in the wrong place but that's not the feeling I got with my particular agent.

When you submit your application it goes to a local agent. When they call you and arrange to do a face to face interview, your paperwork has only been in that agents hands and is not processed yet into the system. While my agent was here, we went through every part of the application and he had me make changes (and sign the changes) that he said would help to process the paperwork quicker. For instance. The section on the form that askes what days your business operates. (This is so they can do unannounced visits to your home or business). I'm just a hobbyist, so I have no time at which I do business, so I filled it in that I'm only available on Saturday and Sundays between 3pm and 6pm. The rest of the week my
"business" is closed. The agent explained that they don't work on the weekends (which we know, hence putting we are only available on the weekends :) and said there has to be a valid time during the work week that I can put so if they want to do an unannounced visit, that they know when I will be home. So he said pick one day and the hours where you "think" you'll normally be home. So I picked Thursday between 6pm and 7pm. He said this is strictly for them to check on your records, they are not coming to search your property. (Being I don't have a magazine, it's less likely they will be popping up for a visit.) He also said, " if you don't happen to be home during that time, they will leave their card in your door or mailbox so you can contact them to "schedule" a day for them to come back and inspect your records. He pretty much eluded that I can control the unannounced visit by not being available. I will still have to contact them to schedule a visit, but it's no longer "unannounced" it's now scheduled.....

[BMoore]

I used to think maybe the outdated ink fingerprinting was to more or less to force applicants to visit their local police to get it done. If someone has bad intentions they might pause at the prospect of stepping into a police station as part of the process. The problem is it is now so outdated that many police stations can no longer do it. It’s great to hear that technology is finally catching up.

I also agree with Engineer Cat that most inspectors are more than helpful. I believe most of the horror stories you hear are inspectors that simply don’t fully understand the process. Remember these folks spend 99% of their time dealing with businesses. We hobbyists are a very rare breed.

[Knightmare]

Everything was mailed Saturday.

Wish me some luck!

[Engineer Cat]

Everything was mailed Saturday.

Wish me some luck!

Are you using contingency storage or do you have a magazine? If using contingency you shouldn't have any issue unless there is something in your background check that flags you. If you have a mag, you just have to deal with the added inspections to make sure it's up to snuff or make changes to it that they recommend so they can approve you.

[Knightmare]

Are you using contingency storage or do you have a magazine? If using contingency you shouldn't have any issue unless there is something in your background check that flags you. If you have a mag, you just have to deal with the added inspections to make sure it's up to snuff or make changes to it that they recommend so they can approve you.

Contingency Storage

Clean Record

[Engineer Cat]

Contingency Storage

Clean Record

You'll be fine.

[Knightmare]

You'll be fine.

Update

They cashed my check!!!!

Interview Next?

[Salutecake]

Yep, interview next.

[Knightmare]

Yep, interview next.

Will they come out to my house for the interview?

And,

Usually, how long after cashing your check?

[Arclight]

They will come out to your home if that's the address you listed on the application. If you have a magazine, they will want to meet at that location.

[Knightmare]

They will come out to your home if that's the address you listed on the application. If you have a magazine, they will want to meet at that location.

Cool

I wonder when it will be? Does it take awhile?

[Arclight]

Cool

I wonder when it will be? Does it take awhile?

They will call and schedule the interview with you. I've not heard of anyone getting a surprise visit after sending in their application.

For reference, here is the last application I did:


3/7/23 Application mailed Priority USPS
4/14/23 Call from ATF
4/17/23 On-site interview and magazine inspection
4/28/23 Additional magazine worksheet requested for type 3 day boxes
5/8/23 - License arrived in mail

[Engineer Cat]

They will call and schedule the interview with you. I've not heard of anyone getting a surprise visit after sending in their application.

For reference, here is the last application I did:


3/7/23 Application mailed Priority USPS
4/14/23 Call from ATF
4/17/23 On-site interview and magazine inspection
4/28/23 Additional magazine worksheet requested for type 3 day boxes
5/8/23 - License arrived in mail

Probably 2 to 3 weeks after you saw your check got cashed. But when they call, they will try to schedule you in as soon as possible. So use that to your advantage to get him there so he can process your application quicker.

Yea Arclight is correct. It won't be a surprise, they will call and schedule a time and date with you. If no Mag then 45 mins tops.

[Knightmare]

An agent called me for interview.

Unfortunately, I missed the telephone call because of my work.

I called and left a message but never heard back.

I was told this isn't a good sign.

So my question is, when they reject you can you apply again?

[displayfireworks1]

I suspect he tried to call you to set up his work schedule for the coming week before the holiday weekend as apposed to doom and gloom on your application. Keep your phone handy and be ready to answer it.

[Knightmare]

I suspect he tried to call you to set up his work schedule for the coming week before the holiday weekend as apposed to doom and gloom on your application. Keep your phone handy and be ready to answer it.


License Denied

No Reason

[CelestialTree]

I did my employee possessor form in June and did not have to send fingerprints.


I just had an ATF agent out for in person and can confirm Employee Possessors do not need finger printed per ATF rules - you send in the form and they do a standard background check and you are good to go. Per the ATF agent the second that form is in the mail to the licensing facility that person is considered good to go (assuming you know they dont have anything stopping them from being able to do so.)

[displayfireworks1]

License Denied

No Reason

Self fulfilling prophesy

[BMoore]

License Denied

No Reason

Keep calling. Either something came back on your background check or the inspector marked you down as being unreachable. In the three time I’ve been called for interviews I’ve missed the call every time. They have left a message and I’ve called back same day and not had any issues at all. Maybe I’ve just been lucky.

[Knightmare]

Keep calling. Either something came back on your background check or the inspector marked you down as being unreachable. In the three time I’ve been called for interviews I’ve missed the call every time. They have left a message and I’ve called back same day and not had any issues at all. Maybe I’ve just been lucky.

Nothing came back on my background check because there is absolutely nothing.

Clean Records

Also, I called back three times and left a message.

[Knightmare]

Self fulfilling prophesy

I don't understand what you mean?

[BMoore]

Nothing came back on my background check because there is absolutely nothing.

Clean Records

Also, I called back three times and left a message.

Who are you calling? I'd be calling the Martinsburg, WV office to get an explanation. You can appeal the decision, but you need to know what the reasoning is in order to appeal. I'm having some trouble piecing together your timeline. On 9/1 you mentioned that you missed a call to set up an interview, but you were already assuming at that point you would be rejected. Why? And then by the next day you already had a denial letter? How much time actually elapsed between the inspector calling you and the denial letter? If the inspector wanted to use "unable to contact" as an excuse to close out the application, why would he have left you a message? Honestly, I feel like the inspector probably didn't receive your return messages for some reason but who knows.

[Knightmare]

Who are you calling? I'd be calling the Martinsburg, WV office to get an explanation. You can appeal the decision, but you need to know what the reasoning is in order to appeal. I'm having some trouble piecing together your timeline. On 9/1 you mentioned that you missed a call to set up an interview, but you were already assuming at that point you would be rejected. Why? And then by the next day you already had a denial letter? How much time actually elapsed between the inspector calling you and the denial letter? If the inspector wanted to use "unable to contact" as an excuse to close out the application, why would he have left you a message? Honestly, I feel like the inspector probably didn't receive your return messages for some reason but who knows.

Is this the number for the Martinsburg office?

202-648-7777

I honestly don't know what's going on here.

[Arclight]

Is this the number for the Martinsburg office?

202-648-7777

I honestly don't know what's going on here.

Try the ATF's FELC (Federal Explosives Licensing Center) Hotline: (877) 283-3352

[CelestialTree]

If you are in PA (assuming you are close by) just call the field office number for Pittsburgh and see if they can give you a bit more reasoning. The ATF website has a listing for what field offices are for what areas, just find the correct one and give them a call.

[Knightmare]

Update:


I had my interview.

I had to make an amendment on my form regarding home ownership.

Sending in property records and a permission form from owner of property.

I don't own my home.

Interview went very well.

Now, how long does this take to receive the license?

[BMoore]

Happy to hear about your positive turn of events! Getting permission from property owner seems to be common when you don't own the property. Seems odd considering you aren't storing product at the premesis. From what I've been told, the ATF views the permit as a type of business license and since some landlords do not allow their property to be used as a business address they want to cover their bases.

Usually the license comes pretty quickly after the interview but be patient. The impending, potential government shut down may start delaying administrative things. I ran into that in 2018 I believe it was.

[Knightmare]

Happy to hear about your positive turn of events! Getting permission from property owner seems to be common when you don't own the property. Seems odd considering you aren't storing product at the premesis. From what I've been told, the ATF views the permit as a type of business license and since some landlords do not allow their property to be used as a business address they want to cover their bases.

Usually the license comes pretty quickly after the interview but be patient. The impending, potential government shut down may start delaying administrative things. I ran into that in 2018 I believe it was.

Okay Cool

I heard about a potential shutdown.

She said she was working on getting it approved quickly.

Maybe this is why.

[Knightmare]

Quick Update

They just called and asked about additional things for approval which is really strange.

Questions were as follows:

1. Have you ever shot fireworks before?
2. What is your brother's SSN.
3. Where do you plan on shooting the fireworks?

I will not be giving my brother's information.

Therefore, license was denied.

This never happened to anyone here so I am unsure why my license was rejected.

They asked if I had experience with pyrotechnics

[BMoore]

None of those questions make any sense. What does your brother have to do with this? Does he own your property? Is he a responsible person listed on your application?

[PyromusicalAddiction]

I ordered mine directly from ATF website about 2 months ago free of charge and they arrived in about 4 days. I ordered 2 for just in case purposes…

[displayfireworks1]

None of those questions make any sense. What does your brother have to do with this? Does he own your property? Is he a responsible person listed on your application?

Does any of it make any sense.

[Knightmare]

None of those questions make any sense. What does your brother have to do with this? Does he own your property? Is he a responsible person listed on your application?

He owns the property.

The Good News

I GOT MY LICENSE TODAY IN THE MAIL!!!!

FINALLY!!!!

[BMoore]

He owns the property.

The Good News

I GOT MY LICENSE TODAY IN THE MAIL!!!!

FINALLY!!!!

Congratulations! No more random denials now that you have it in hand. Do not sign the license. Instead, make several copies and save the unsigned original. The reason for this is many vendors will want to see you sign it in front of them and won't accept a copied signature.

If your brother owns the property where you live (i.e. where you conduct business) I can see them wanting to identify him. If he owns the property where you shoot then maybe you gave them too much info. They always ask me where I shoot and my answer is along the lines of "No certain location" which is absolutely true. Its not like I have a legal contract giving me guaranteed rights to a property. And then there are open shoots, club shoots, etc. I may choose to attend. Opportunities come and go. I think when they ask that question it's a non-confrontational way of them asking "Are you capable of using the license legally?" but can get off track in a hurry depending on how it's answered.

[Knightmare]

Congratulations! No more random denials now that you have it in hand. Do not sign the license. Instead, make several copies and save the unsigned original. The reason for this is many vendors will want to see you sign it in front of them and won't accept a copied signature.

If your brother owns the property where you live (i.e. where you conduct business) I can see them wanting to identify him. If he owns the property where you shoot then maybe you gave them too much info. They always ask me where I shoot and my answer is along the lines of "No certain location" which is absolutely true. Its not like I have a legal contract giving me guaranteed rights to a property. And then there are open shoots, club shoots, etc. I may choose to attend. Opportunities come and go. I think when they ask that question it's a non-confrontational way of them asking "Are you capable of using the license legally?" but can get off track in a hurry depending on how it's answered.

Thanks for the advice!

I am so grateful this was finally approved.

Now, when purchasing display type cakes, do vendors sell the 1/1 cakes you see on YouTube?

I know about display type fireworks cakes but I am referring to the 1/1 cakes with the colorful wrapping and names.

[BMoore]

Thanks for the advice!

I am so grateful this was finally approved.

Now, when purchasing display type cakes, do vendors sell the 1/1 cakes you see on YouTube?

I know about display type fireworks cakes but I am referring to the 1/1 cakes with the colorful wrapping and names.

1.3 display cakes are usually just brown label. One of the benefits of professional product is you aren’t paying for a bunch of colorful advertising. A lot of stuff on YouTube is either in foreign markets, bootleg, or 1.3 that has been illegally re-labeled to look like 1.4 unfortunately.

[Salutecake]

So I hope someone can kindof clear this up --- I think he is talking about what some call 1/1 cakes that are a 1.4 product -- where as a 1/1 explosive is nothing to fool with.
I would also expect that having your type 54 will alow you to purchase 1.4 stuff.

[BMoore]

Whenever I see 1/1, I take that to mean one cake per case. Smaller cakes are 4/1, 2/1 etc. I’ve never heard of a 1/1 explosive. A 1.1 explosive would be bulk salutes and large shells over a certain diameter but usually doesn’t include cakes. Usually when 1.3 guys talk about 1/1 cakes they are talking about the larger multi-shape or show in a box style cakes. There are 1/1 packaged 1.4 cakes as well but you don’t need a federal license to buy those.

[Salutecake]

I meant to write, 1.1 explosives. I stand corrected, thanks BMoore!