1.4 pro ported?

[Salutecake]

I was just looking (online no discription details) at some raccoon shells 1.4 pro, not mines or comets they look like canister shells- I would believe they are ported, can someone confirm?

[BMoore]

I don't believe they are ported. My understanding is that they are traditional 1.4 consumer shells but sold in bulk without tubes. Great cost savings, but nothing special about the shells themselves.

[topshelfpyro]

Actual cost savings? The ones I've compared were just pennies difference than the standard packaging consumer per can.

[BMoore]

Actual cost savings? The ones I've compared were just pennies difference than the standard packaging consumer per can.

Well, savings for somebody. Smaller packaging should be less shipping costs alone. Unfortunate if those savings aren't being passed down to the user.

[displayfireworks1]

I am not an expert on this but it is my understanding Consumer artillery shells need to include a mortar for ever 6 shells and the mortar has to be built to specs of shooting 6x2 . Shells in bulk are not for Consumer resale.
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Selling shells this way is not new , it is now apparently reclassified. Years back I saw these shipped bulk in the same fashion with the cardboard kits flat. Distributors would then rebuild the kits once they arrived. Apparently, to get more in the container. The ATF or some regulatory body said this could be done but the bulk shells has to be shipped 1.3 and reclassified to 1.4 once they arrived in USA. Now that is charged, all the more reason for large users of fireworks to get a AP certificate.
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Years back at the PGI Convention (aka Conduit) I bought two cases of all canister shells. I forget how many were in the case. It may have been 48 shells or more I am not sure.

[jamisonlm3]

The reason we see shells sold in sets of 6 is because that's a single kit. A launching tube must be packaged wth them that can be used to lauch all the shells in that kit. The kit can also contain no more than 400g of total comp. When you look at a pricelist and see shells listed as 4/4/6, that's why. That's 4 boxes with 4 kits of 6 shell. That's my understanding. That said, if the price isn't much different than normal consumer canister shell, I see no point unless there's something else different. The shells themselves are the exact same thing, just without the moartar. The lack of one is the only thing that makes them 1.4 pro.

[displayfireworks1]

Don't look for 1.4 Pro products to cost less. It will be interesting to see how the market responds. I know of a few retail locations that want nothing to do with them. One told me why sell something only a few people can purchase when I am selling something any citizen can purchase.

[Birdman]

Don't look for 1.4 Pro products to cost less. It will be interesting to see how the market responds. I know of a few retail locations that want nothing to do with them. One told me why sell something only a few people can purchase when I am selling something any citizen can purchase.

I can tell them why they should sell it. The person looking to purchase 1.4 pro is generally going to be purchasing a lot more then the average citizen and they are more likely to purchase product outside of the few weeks of peak sales. I also suspect they are much more loyal customers in general that will be repeat customers year over year if you offer the right product at competitive prices. 1.4 pro users are also likely going to be the ones talking about pyro all year long and the ones many people are going to go to and ask about where to purchase fireworks. If I were the purveyor of fireworks I would pride myself on being able to service everyone in the market, particularly those that are more discerning consumers looking for higher end product. Sounds to me like a lazy shortsighted take on doing business. But I'm not at all surprised. Some of the firework retailers I've dealt with (or tried to) over the years have about as much marketing and customer service savvy as the average street corner drug dealer.

[Salutecake]

On the other hand Birdman, why would most of us here, want to deal with a limited supplier?

[Engineer Cat]

When it comes to cost it depends on your vendor. I have multiple vendors I get most of my stuff from. These two both have this item for different prices.

There's perks to being in a pyro club that has members that are vendors. We have no minimums but still get the different wholesale list prices depending on the time a year. Usually it's A or B list but I'm using C for this example. Sometimes they throw on an additional 15 - 20% on top of that.

WPL175CS-02 6 Inch Ring Wizard 16/6 $163.99 $10 per 1/6
WPL175CS-02 6 Inch Ring Wizard 16/6 $274.99 $22 per 1/6

I purchased 24/1 of Wizard 40mm Red tiger tail comets for $45.00 from one of them.

[Birdman]

On the other hand Birdman, why would most of us here, want to deal with a limited supplier?

That is basically the point I was trying to make. If they don't want to deal with us, that's their prerogative. I just think it's not a very wise business decision.


When it comes to cost it depends on your vendor. I have multiple vendors I get most of my stuff from. These two both have this item for different prices.

There's perks to being in a pyro club that has members that are vendors. We have no minimums but still get the different wholesale list prices depending on the time a year. Usually it's A or B list but I'm using C for this example. Sometimes they throw on an additional 15 - 20% on top of that.

WPL175CS-02 6 Inch Ring Wizard 16/6 $163.99 $10 per 1/6
WPL175CS-02 6 Inch Ring Wizard 16/6 $274.99 $22 per 1/6

I purchased 24/1 of Wizard 40mm Red tiger tail comets for $45.00 from one of them.

As they say...membership has it's privileges.

[topshelfpyro]

Don't look for 1.4 Pro products to cost less. It will be interesting to see how the market responds. I know of a few retail locations that want nothing to do with them. One told me why sell something only a few people can purchase when I am selling something any citizen can purchase.

And that is EXACTLY the problem......there is nothing "pro" about selling the same cans in a different packaging. When you can bulk pack cans then they should be cheaper per can vs having to put a tube for every 6 cans and all the other consumer stuff like color printing, fancy graphics, embossing, whatever. Victory has sold bulk shells for several years and never labeled "pro".

[BMoore]

And that is EXACTLY the problem......there is nothing "pro" about selling the same cans in a different packaging. When you can bulk pack cans then they should be cheaper per can vs having to put a tube for every 6 cans and all the other consumer stuff like color printing, fancy graphics, embossing, whatever. Victory has sold bulk shells for several years and never labeled "pro".

I'd say we are seeing the start of the "Pro" designation being used as a marketing gimmick. If it's "Pro" it must be better and must cost more. If they really wanted to do something for the pro market then why not sell these shells as single effects or single colors or add ports? All that seems to be happening here is someone is saving a ton of money on materials, packaging and shipping costs but keeping the selling up there because of their perceived premium status.

[displayfireworks1]

What start of a marketing gimmick LOL it is already going on now . That "Pro" term is already thrown around on Consumer Fireworks. I tell non-experienced people if you see the word "Pro" on a product with a colorful label sitting on a retail shelf it is a Consumer Fireworks product. Same as labeling 1.3 products , 1.4 true "Professional" products are forbidden to have colorful labels as not to be confused with Consumer Fireworks. To add more confusion to the mix, there are Consumer Fireworks out there that try to visually look like "Pro" products with generic brown paper labels and even use old outdated terminology labeling like "Class B" Fireworks. LOL Welcome to the world of consumer marketing .

[BMoore]

What start of a marketing gimmick LOL it is already going on now . That "Pro" term is already thrown around on Consumer Fireworks. I tell non-experienced people if you see the word "Pro" on a product with a colorful label sitting on a retail shelf it is a Consumer Fireworks product. Same as labeling 1.3 products , 1.4 true "Professional" products are forbidden to have colorful labels as not to be confused with Consumer Fireworks. To add more confusion to the mix, there are Consumer Fireworks out there that try to visually look like "Pro" products with generic brown paper labels and even use old outdated terminology labeling like "Class B" Fireworks. LOL Welcome to the world of consumer marketing .

Yes, except these bulk consumer shells are being imported under UN0431, a category where the “pro” designation should actually mean something. This is the first instance I’m aware of where qualified 1.4 pro purchasers are seemingly paying more for less for no other reason than these are in their 1.4 pro category.

[cduesman]

I'd prefer the bulk packing even if it's not a cost savings. Less hassle to deal with extra tubes and cardboard that you don't want or need.
If I'm storing them, it's less space it takes up. I particularly dislike retail boxing that uses staples to secure the plastic shell holders to cardboard.

The wholesalers are probably buying crazy more quantity of the consumer packed shells than the pro bulk packed shells. So even though they are same shells, their price could differ. (You'd think the shipping saving would offset that.)

Seems like they could make make 1.4 pro shells with QM leaders and plugs if they wanted, but i don't think there's enough demand.

Actually, I'm not sure that QM leaders couldn't actually be used in consumer shells as long as it has the visco fused end and still met the required burn times.

Chris

[Engineer Cat]

Actually, I'm not sure that QM leaders couldn't actually be used in consumer shells as long as it has the visco fused end and still met the required burn times.

Chris

Yea what looks like QM on these 1.4pro products are actually strands of gray quick fuse piped and connect to a an Eport since they can't use QM. Still burns stupid fast and really isn't much slower if your trying to time it, than QM when used in a short leader.

[Salutecake]

One of the reason I asked about being ported - price and ease of use - I can get 2.5 shells for about 3 bucks apiece and they're ready to go. I like the way the 1.4 shell are hitting these days, I think some are even better that the 2.5 1.3 shells, but if the price is going to be about the same? I've poked enough shells, lol.

[jamisonlm3]

Yea what looks like QM on these 1.4pro products are actually strands of gray quick fuse piped and connect to a an Eport since they can't use QM. Still burns stupid fast and really isn't much slower if your trying to time it, than QM when used in a short leader.It must be very tiny fuse. Can you or someone else take a picture? The 1.4 pro slices I was working with a couple of weeks ago had what looked an awfully lot like quickmatch to me. It was very different to the visco they had in them too.

[BMoore]

It must be very tiny fuse. Can you or someone else take a picture? The 1.4 pro slices I was working with a couple of weeks ago had what looked an awfully lot like quickmatch to me. It was very different to the visco they had in them too.

Agree. I think 1.4 pro uses genuine quickmatch. I’m not sure about the ported 1.4 consumer cakes. Maybe Dave can tell us as I believe some of his cakes have had hidden ports tied to what looks like quickmatch. There is 1.4 quickmatch out there. I’ve seen it either perchlorate based or 3 strand black match instead of 5.

[Engineer Cat]

It must be very tiny fuse. Can you or someone else take a picture? The 1.4 pro slices I was working with a couple of weeks ago had what looked an awfully lot like quickmatch to me. It was very different to the visco they had in them too.


Agree. I think 1.4 pro uses genuine quickmatch. I’m not sure about the ported 1.4 consumer cakes. Maybe Dave can tell us as I believe some of his cakes have had hidden ports tied to what looks like quickmatch. There is 1.4 quickmatch out there. I’ve seen it either perchlorate based or 3 strand black match instead of 5.

I probably should have stated that I saw this on the Wizard cakes I had so it's possible other 1.4pro items have QM. But how confusing is that? QM needs to be stored in a Mag, but 1.4pro that have QM attached doesn't need to be stored in a Mag.....

[displayfireworks1]

Don't confuse components of a Consumer product with being able to purchase that component separate from the product. For example those Tannerite cakes came with a supplied Electric Match under the cellophane and/or even built into the cake at one time . But if you go to try to purchase a traditional electric match on its own you need a license. Another example may be a Consumer firecracker has a small amount of flash-powder , does that mean I can purchase ready made flash powder because it is already being used in a legal product?
In consumer products I like to use the example of Motrin (ibuprofen) you can purchase 200 mg tablets over the counter however, a 600 mg or 800 mg tablet is restricted to a doctors prescription. People that sell these products know how to do this with packaging and special instructions etc. Sure you can take four 200 mg Motrin to make 800 mg however , the instructions told you not to take more than two tablets.
I suggest do not try to logic it all out just enjoy the products as they become available.

[Engineer Cat]

Don't confuse components of a Consumer product with being able to purchase that component separate from the product. For example those Tannerite cakes came with a supplied Electric Match under the cellophane and/or even built into the cake at one time . But if you go to try to purchase a traditional electric match on its own you need a license. Another example may be a Consumer firecracker has a small amount of flash-powder , does that mean I can purchase ready made flash powder because it is already being used in a legal product?
In consumer products I like to use the example of Motrin (ibuprofen) you can purchase 200 mg tablets over the counter however, a 600 mg or 800 mg tablet is restricted to a doctors prescription. People that sell these products know how to do this with packaging and special instructions etc. Sure you can take four 200 mg Motrin to make 800 mg however , the instructions told you not to take more than two tablets.
I suggest do not try to logic it all out just enjoy the products as they become available.

That's a very good comparison. Thanks!

[captainpryo]

Yes, except these bulk consumer shells are being imported under UN0431, a category where the “pro” designation should actually mean something. This is the first instance I’m aware of where qualified 1.4 pro purchasers are seemingly paying more for less for no other reason than these are in their 1.4 pro category.

These bulk shells are being imported under UN0336 for professional use. Very little 1.4 pro that is being imported now is UN0431 unless it is old stock.