1.4 pro in peril

[PG2159]

Any one listen to the RhythmPyro Podcast? Very interesting discussion on lobbying activities to further restrict 1.4pro product to permitted/insured displays.

[jamisonlm3]

If they do, it won't surprise me. If they're really a "pro" product, they'll probably just limit them similar to how 1.3 is. I don't think the industy as a whole really wants that though. Alot of people are probably looking at 1.4 pro as an opportunity. Still, depending on what happens, this whole 1.4 pro stuff might just become one big farce sadly.

[jamisonlm3]

Here's the link to the podcast for anyone interested in listening to it.
https://www.podbean.com/media/share/pb-rix9t-14354ce

[Birdman]

Never listed to that pod but for the few years I've been around here there has always been this push and pull between display companies that want to restrict 1.4 pro while also not wanting to have the hassle of handling it like 1.3 and everyone else that want to sell and use this product.

[PG2159]

Honestly, it was good discussion. I would encourage you to listen to it if you dable in the 1.4 pro arena.

[Scotty Rockets]

Thank you APA 87.1 revision…. A lobbyist group for the corporate pyro industry…. Give the street pyros what they want then restrict 1.4pro, there appears to be the agenda all along.

[displayfireworks1]

This is good post and link to a pyro podcast. I am not sure what role these individuals have in the industry. I listened to entire podcast in regard to the 1.4 "Pro" products. While they had a lot of great discussion about these new 1.4 "Pro" products , the advanced non ATF license holder wanting access to these products , the American Pyrotechnic Association role in attempting to regulate access to these products, the PGI shooter training course and how it does not address the Articles of Pyrotechnic category. Then they discuss who represents the advanced hobbyist user of pyrotechnics in these regulations of who can purchase and use etc? They agree some sort of training or separation needs established to allow access to these products.
What didn't I hear? What I do on pyrotalk over the years with the ATF license since forever and the Articles of Pyrotechnic certification since 2018 . How can you be that knowledgeable and not see what I am doing for all these years? What they are accusing the American Pyrotechnic Association of in regard to this new 1.4 Pro category by ignoring what they do as advanced fireworks enthusiast . They are directly ignoring what I have been doing for years working towards that goal essentially doing the same thing the APA is doing to them. They are guilty of the same thing they are accusing the APA of. Ignoring what I do and have been doing.
I keep professing the real anti-fireworks imaginary faction does not exist. The enemy is within the industry. The leadership all the way down to whoever these advanced users are.

[Salutecake]

I believe you are spot on Dave! I must admit I listened to a good portion of the podcast but I did not listen to the entire cast. So If I missed something in my interpretation I appologize now. It was informative and good to hear other points of view.

2 things that I took away, was first as you mentioned Dave, your efforts and others, to provide training to people so they can have the knowledge to safely use the Pro product. Instead I heard complaints about (in general) the lack of training being provided (which people like you provide) and the lack of covering 1.4 pro products like in the PGI course.

I did hear the concern of people getting their hands on these pro products that are going to use them without regard of understanding how the product works, how they are going to get hurt and how it will ruin it for the pro hobbyists.. Well I'm sorry to say this is probably going to happen because it happens in everything.

Thnking back the reason I did not listen to the whole productions was because of the continuing blame game on every orgaization associated with fireworks, along with no incentive for a solution, just the woe is me, being a small group of pro hobbyist and nobody cares about us.

Dave you, among others, provide a way out, you provide your course which quailfies people to purchase and use Pro stuff, the PGI course I know has changed and I am not sure if anything about 1.4 pro stuff is included, but the course is availabe that provides training for products that provide much more explosive power and also qualifies for the pro stuff.

My last quick thought are, stop the complaining, go out and get the training, use your podcast to connect all thses fireworks clubs together for a stronger voice to the industry or your complaining will go on and nothing will change.

[Engineer Cat]

Could the PGI add a short section that pretty much explains things like Dave does for his AP training? Sure, is it necessary. I don't think so. The PGI DOC explains all the things you need to know as a 1.3 shooter. 1.4pro products fall into that category and if you are already using E-fire systems you don't really need to know anything more.

One of them mentioned that they saw people at the PGI course that sole purpose was only to be able to by 1.4pro items. I didn't see that when I had my training, and really what does it matter. These guys are complaining that people who don't know what they are doing are getting their hands on 1.4pro. Well at least those people who took the DOC course now have better knowledge of safe practices, unlike these these street pyro's shooting 6 inch shells out of an unsupported mortar in the middle of the street. It really pisses me off that these clowns get their hands on 1.3 when they clearly do not have the credentials to obtain these items, and post videos of them shooting it in the most unsafe way possible, No respect whatsoever for the power of these items.

[Birdman]

I listened to the pod and thought it was a good discussion. There was a lot of talk about training, or the lack there of, but I don't believe that is what the focus should be on. What I heard was they agreed that before they changed what could be classified as 1.4pro, the "system" was working just fine. It was just us hobbyists and display companies that had any interest in 1.4pro because it only offered "artistic value" over consumer 1.4. Now, with the addition of flash, 1000g cakes etc, it has attracted the interest of an entirely different crowd that is much less interested in the art of pyrotechnics. I've seen this for myself. It's no longer just 1.4 consumer designed for professional use. It now provides a legal path for just about anyone to get their hands on what was previously illegal product. I don't believe any amount of training is going to prevent people from wanting this new product and using it inappropriately.

So much to say....not enough time.....

[Engineer Cat]

I listened to the pod and thought it was a good discussion. There was a lot of talk about training, or the lack there of, but I don't believe that is what the focus should be on. What I heard was they agreed that before they changed what could be classified as 1.4pro, the "system" was working just fine. It was just us hobbyists and display companies that had any interest in 1.4pro because it only offered "artistic value" over consumer 1.4. Now, with the addition of flash, 1000g cakes etc, it has attracted the interest of an entirely different crowd that is much less interested in the art of pyrotechnics. I've seen this for myself. It's no longer just 1.4 consumer designed for professional use. It now provides a legal path for just about anyone to get their hands on what was previously illegal product. I don't believe any amount of training is going to prevent people from wanting this new product and using it inappropriately.

So much to say....not enough time.....

I agree, I heard that too. I don't want to upset anyone here but I don't really understand the love for "air burst". There's no artist value to that effect. I like the concussion you feel when they go off but I don't need it. In all fairness I'm shooting to music, I'm trying to paint the sky to emphasize the music, so I don't need additional noise muffling it. However those that don't shoot to music, I can understand they want a lot of boom. If they wanted to reclassify items with flash back to 1.3 I wouldn't care. But the single shot, effects, slices and special effects cakes like x patterns, butterflies, wings, peacock etc. should stay as 1.4 pro.

I might get tarred and feathered at our next club shoot for saying that cause BOYYY they sure love their "air bursts" ;) These guys are shooting 1.3 though which is a completely different animal from the 1.4pro flash stuff.

[Walt]

I agree, I heard that too. I don't want to upset anyone here but I don't really understand the love for "air burst". There's no artist value to that effect. I like the concussion you feel when they go off but I don't need it. In all fairness I'm shooting to music, I'm trying to paint the sky to emphasize the music, so I don't need additional noise muffling it. However those that don't shoot to music, I can understand they want a lot of boom. If they wanted to reclassify items with flash back to 1.3 I wouldn't care. But the single shot, effects, slices and special effects cakes like x patterns, butterflies, wings, peacock etc. should stay as 1.4 pro.

I might get tarred and feathered at our next club shoot for saying that cause BOYYY they sure love their "air bursts" ;) These guys are shooting 1.3 though which is a completely different animal from the 1.4pro flash stuff.


I largely agree with you. The only caveat for me is I think there is something "artistic" about punctuating the end of a finale with a good solid salute barrage. We can emulate this sending tons of canisters up at the end, but I find the ball of sun/skypuke that it creates is less appealing than if you had a handful of individual shells breaking over top of a salute barrage. That to me is more artistic.

[jamisonlm3]

I agree, I heard that too. I don't want to upset anyone here but I don't really understand the love for "air burst". There's no artist value to that effect. I like the concussion you feel when they go off but I don't need it. In all fairness I'm shooting to music, I'm trying to paint the sky to emphasize the music, so I don't need additional noise muffling it. However those that don't shoot to music, I can understand they want a lot of boom. If they wanted to reclassify items with flash back to 1.3 I wouldn't care. But the single shot, effects, slices and special effects cakes like x patterns, butterflies, wings, peacock etc. should stay as 1.4 pro.

I might get tarred and feathered at our next club shoot for saying that cause BOYYY they sure love their "air bursts" ;) These guys are shooting 1.3 though which is a completely different animal from the 1.4pro flash stuff.I agree. I'm not huge fan of salutes, but I still like them. Some guys just really like them. I'm guessing it's similar to how people like shooting guns, driving fast cars or roller coaster rides. Another reason is probably because of psychology. Because they can't be sold to regular people without a permit, someone people desire them all the more. I can understand that. Being told you can't have this or can't do that tends to make you want it or to it more. There could also be the desire to obtain something that is usually not obtainable for most other people.

[bozie8823]

Evening gang,

So cool to see discussion making rounds and creating discussion on this across the space. I thought I'd pop in and rap with you guys for a bit.

I'm Bo. I co-host and produce the RHYTHM Pyro Podcast.

@Displayfireworks1
Hi Dave,

I am not sure what role these individuals have in the industry
I'm an Ohio licensed lead shooter (professionally I shoot for display companies in the region as well as under a small display company my father and I founded), 54 holder, President of the Ohio Pyrotechnic Arts Guild (where I shoot within the confines of the non-profit club scene), hobbyist & community show designer (I'm a music producer/rock musician that writes music/pyro soundtracks and designs pyromusical shows to accompany them | bozie (https://www.youtube.com/@Bozie8823/videos). I've designed and shot shows at industry events like the NFA and Sky Wars.), I also own a small pyro shop focused on the needs of the modern pyro-show designer (where I do professional audio work for display companies, music, voiceovers, sell single shot related tools/products, firing system electronics, create and market custom field accurate Finale 3D product simulations, and produce my podcast). While all of this sounds like a lot (and professional to a degree) the bulk of my involvement in the fireworks is very much "for the love of the game". I've been a hobbyist first and foremost throughout the entirety of my career and have always stayed "up" on the latest regulation movements in an effort to guage "where we're going" as an industry.


What didn't I hear? What I do on pyrotalk over the years with the ATF license since forever and the Articles of Pyrotechnic certification since 2018 . How can you be that knowledgeable and not see what I am doing for all these years? Not at all. I'll be the first to say "thanks" for all the content you've created over the years in an effort to educate those entering and learning our space. Please consider our discussion on the podcast 100% related to the actual standardized, required, and policed means the industry uses to determine qualification and competence. As much as I or those consuming your content would love for "I watch Dave's videos" or "I've purchased Dave's courses" to be a box they could tick when working with a vendor to buy the old UN0436 or current UN0336 For Professional Use Only it unfortunately, isn't an industry recognized standard. As it sits at present, the industry standard/accepted means to acquire this product include, a 54 (which we argue doesn't, in and of itself, demonstrate any degree of competence), a state shooters license (which training levels differ greatly depending on the state), and the PGI Shooters Certification (which we've determined doesn't specifically do enough to cover the 1.4 pro sub-class).


What they are accusing the American Pyrotechnic Association of in regard to this new 1.4 Pro category by ignoring what they do as advanced fireworks enthusiast . They are directly ignoring what I have been doing for years working towards that goal essentially doing the same thing the APA is doing to them. They are guilty of the same thing they are accusing the APA of. Ignoring what I do and have been doing.
Could you unpack this one a bit more for me so I understand (for the lack of a better word) the accusation? As I mentioned earlier in the post, the depth of our discussion on the podcast is based on the "hardline industry requirements" and training level qualifications the industry has set for itself as means to get 1.4 pro. We find it stellar that you and so many others continue to use your platforms to educate. Until we work together to help the industry determine how to update these standardized training requirements, we're still subject to the ones that are currently in place.

The APA was a large part of the new 1.4 pro pyrotechnic compound increases (1k gram powder increases and the inclusion of flash powder) when UN0431 ceased and the new UN0336 for professional use only was instated. They did so under the requests and recommendation of their constituents (who all happen to be industry display company heads and entities that benefit greatly from it's migration from 1.3 to 1.4).

What we're advocating for is representation at these tables (with the bodies largely making decisions for everyone, that don't by any stretch include everyone/the breadth of the user base).

Know we love what you do and what you've built over the years! Thanks for your continued efforts to educate and promote safety within the community.

[PG2159]

Is there somewhere I can read up on these changes? I briefly searched the APA site but I was not able to find anything.

[PG2159]

I find this whole bit wonky. This was recently enacted, now it's being nearly re-dacted or ultra enforced, how ever you look at it. I question the quantitative data. The podcast discussion had eluded to current trends in fireworks injury date, which there probably is not enough data related to 1.4pro. Was there an increase in insurance claims related to its use? Was there an uptick in reported injuries? Was there a significant number of AHJ fearful or presented concerns in the use of this product?

A quick look at the APA websites annual fireworks injury report has shown a consistent reduction in injuries, even documenting increased 2x more frequent injury from grills in 2019. Anecdotally, I work in an emergency department, and would consider firework related injuries very, very rare. Frankly, I think you have to take injuries related to fireworks off the table as a discussion point for tighter regulations. I see far more devastating motorcycle injuries, that doesn't result in tighter regulations.

Another point to ponder, from 2019-2022 there was a 78% increase in consumer fireworks sales. I think a lot of that is related to COVID demand. Further, from 2000-2022, display fireworks have seen a 50% percent decrease in consumption, where was the consumer fireworks consumption since 2000 has increased 325% from 102mill/lbs-436mill/lbs. So there is a palpable change in industry market distribution.

Let's be real, who out there, aside from display company's, are going to get permits and insurance for shows at the consumer level to purchase 1.4pro product? Why even classify it as 1.4 pro? Why not just make it 1.3 and call it a day? Personally, if you classify it as 1.4 you don't need a magazine to store it is my first thought. Secondly, its an additional method for display companies to capture more market control. The term lobbying was used in the podcast, and as far as I'm concerned lobbing/lobbyist is synonymous with interest group. And the point of this interest group is to remove 1.4pro from the consumer, even though its theoretically classified consumer, thus the benefactor is display companies. Which frankly I find interesting, as the consumer market theoretically as a whole should have be more influential.

[topshelfpyro]

The "new rules" for comp were adopted a few years ago. We are just now seeing products available that are based on the "new rules"......

[displayfireworks1]

At Bozie8823
Thanks for commenting, I see you have been a pyrotalk forums member since 2014. I never knew of your pyro podcast until the one member posted about it.
.
.
Like I commented previously, I have been running the Articles of Pyrotechnics certification education since 2018. This is nothing new. I have multiple companies signed onto it and many users without incident. I continue to try to expand it and set a standard of education and proper equipment. In support of advanced fireworks enthusiast.
Over the years with the ATF license package I created and now with the Articles of Pyrotechnic certification. There is common theme that occurs over the years of those that try to stop me and tell me I can’t do something and those who either support what I do or have nothing at all to say about it.
.
Bozie8823 (Bo) if you had to draw that list up of who is trying to stop what I do, organizes others to join this attempt to stop me, and/or argues I can’t accomplish something in the fireworks enthusiast market. If and when I do accomplish it, it infuriates them. Who would you say would be on that stop list? I would like to read your opinion on that.
.
While you write up that stop list I’ll post mine.
I will not say support, although some do. I will say, they never make any attempt to stop what I do and/or have no opinion directed towards me on what I do.
.
The Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Explosives
American Pyrotechnic Association
National Fireworks Association
Consumer Product Safety Commission
Major importers of fireworks into United States
Manufactures of fireworks in China
Owners of fireworks stores
Manufactures of fireworks related equipment
.
Who you got on your stop list?

[Birdman]

PG2159, most of those numbers are skewed by COVID. You had display shows cancelled and consumers with limited entertainment options and additional disposable income driving sales.

I think it is safe to assume you're thoughts about the display lobby are correct. The more product they can import and store without the additional regulations that comes with 1.3, the better for them as it lower their costs. I personally don't believe display companies are all that concerned with hobbyists using 1.4pro in their backyard. Any shows a hobbyist would shoot that would compete with them would most likely need to be, or at least should be, permitted and insured anyway.There are some hobbyists on here that do shoot "community shows" that do get permits and insurance. Like they talked about in the podcast, the hobbyists using this product have been very small in numbers which is why it appears we aren't being considered in these discussions. The need to define "professional use" appears to be driven by the fact that these new 1.4pro products are no longer simply 1.4 consumer in different "clothing". They have become something in between 1.4 and 1.3.

The questions I have is would this proof of permits and insurance need to be provided at time of purchase and for every show? Will the insurance need to cover the specific amount of product being purchased? I can think of ways for just about anyone to get their hands on 1.4pro if all it takes is one person or an organization (e.g. pyro club) to have a permit and insurance to buy as much of it as they want.

[Salutecake]

I missed that whole thought on the permits and insurance talk Birdman so I really don't want to comment on it. But as soon as anyone starts talking about fireworks, you have to have a permit and insurance. That's not always the case, it depends on your State and local gov. and is mostly for people shooting in commerce.

The proof of insurance and permit??? You don't need that to purchase 1.3 so why would that be for 1.4

[Arclight]

I missed that whole thought on the permits and insurance talk Birdman so I really don't want to comment on it. But as soon as anyone starts talking about fireworks, you have to have a permit and insurance. That's not always the case, it depends on your State and local gov. and is mostly for people shooting in commerce.

The proof of insurance and permit??? You don't need that to purchase 1.3 so why would that be for 1.4

On that note, I think there could be an opportunity for an insurance product here. When you rent a community center or public space for an event, it's not uncommon to get "even insurance" for 1-3 days. It's typically a reasonable cost. As far as I know, there are no insurance companies that will do this for small fireworks displays. This would be a good place to position some sort of training requirement or other prerequisite with these products.

[PyroWalker]

I have been following this discussion closely on the Facebook groups. Personally, if there are more regulations, I will probably liquidate everything and get out of the hobby by the time these come into effect. I exclusively shoot private shows on my own property. No commerce, no 1.3. I love to make an artistic pyro musical, and losing or having tighter regulations on comets, mines, slices, etc. will just kill the joy this hobby brings me. I already am a one woman show, so I cannot take on more time and effort to use 1.4 cakes and take them apart and make single effect shots. I already have so much money invested, and I keep up my AOP/PGI certifications up to date. I am not willing to get permits/insurance/1.3 training or work with any of the alphabet agencies to enjoy my hobby.
I sincerely hope that this is all anxiety talk since the product is just catching up with the updated regulations. I don't mind if the 1000g cakes are changed or the flash powder salutes are reclassified. I have used some salute cakes or shells strategically in my shows, but I can do without them. The single shots, mines, comets, and slices are what I hope are left alone.

I do feel that display companies may not like people having access to better products as private shows have become competition for their business. This has happened close to home in my city/town. The big lake community has started to prefer coming to my show and my neighbors shows (we are friends with many of these people) and they are considering not paying for a professional display company next year to shoot on the lake. We constantly get comments that our shows are better (pyro musicals) vs. 3" & 4" cakes on the water with no real design or rhyme or reason. We ventured to a local town (6 miles away) festival to see the fireworks. It was only 3-inch shells and they let them off one at a time for 10 minutes, had 1 1.3 fan cake, and a chain of 10 shells and 10 salutes as a finale. It was so boring. I don't know if the budget was just really skimpy, but I would be ashamed to have that be my display for a community. I hear all the time that people no longer enjoy in going to downtown to see the big displays, dealing with parking and crowds of people. I put the ownness on the display companies to put on better shows to attract and keep their audience again, not see backyard displays as competition.

[displayfireworks1]

I have been following this discussion closely on the Facebook groups. Personally, if there are more regulations, I will probably liquidate everything and get out of the hobby by the time these come into effect. I exclusively shoot private shows on my own property. No commerce, no 1.3. I love to make an artistic pyro musical, and losing or having tighter regulations on comets, mines, slices, etc. will just kill the joy this hobby brings me. I already am a one woman show, so I cannot take on more time and effort to use 1.4 cakes and take them apart and make single effect shots. I already have so much money invested, and I keep up my AOP/PGI certifications up to date. I am not willing to get permits/insurance/1.3 training or work with any of the alphabet agencies to enjoy my hobby.
I sincerely hope that this is all anxiety talk since the product is just catching up with the updated regulations. I don't mind if the 1000g cakes are changed or the flash powder salutes are reclassified. I have used some salute cakes or shells strategically in my shows, but I can do without them. The single shots, mines, comets, and slices are what I hope are left alone.

I do feel that display companies may not like people having access to better products as private shows have become competition for their business. This has happened close to home in my city/town. The big lake community has started to prefer coming to my show and my neighbors shows (we are friends with many of these people) and they are considering not paying for a professional display company next year to shoot on the lake. We constantly get comments that our shows are better (pyro musicals) vs. 3" & 4" cakes on the water with no real design or rhyme or reason. We ventured to a local town (6 miles away) festival to see the fireworks. It was only 3-inch shells and they let them off one at a time for 10 minutes, had 1 1.3 fan cake, and a chain of 10 shells and 10 salutes as a finale. It was so boring. I don't know if the budget was just really skimpy, but I would be ashamed to have that be my display for a community. I hear all the time that people no longer enjoy in going to downtown to see the big displays, dealing with parking and crowds of people. I put the ownness on the display companies to put on better shows to attract and keep their audience again, not see backyard displays as competition.

Amanda
Thanks for your post and summary . Don't give up or predict doom and gloom for the advanced fireworks enthusiast. Keep doing what you are doing . Let the industry adjust to all of this and hopefully self regulate itself. Like I said in a previous post , while the desirability of Articles of Pyrotechnic products has increased the standards in purchasing them has not changed.

[jamisonlm3]

If they do recategorize 1.4 pro as 1.3, then we just go back to how it was not too long ago. In my opinion, nothing really changes, but pandora's box has been opened. With some modification, I don't see a reason these same items can't still be imported and sold to consumers as long as they follow the current regulations/laws. Will they be quite as good as they currently are, no, but I don't think they will bad at all. The big thing is since they will just be specialized consumer fireworks, it will remove the training and other questionable aspects out of purchasing them.

[Birdman]

If they do recategorize 1.4 pro as 1.3, then we just go back to how it was not too long ago. In my opinion, nothing really changes, but pandora's box has been opened. With some modification, I don't see a reason these same items can't still be imported and sold to consumers as long as they follow the current regulations/laws. Will they be quite as good as they currently are, no, but I don't think they will bad at all. The big thing is since they will just be specialized consumer fireworks, it will remove the training and other questionable aspects out of purchasing them.

Nobody wants it reclassified as 1.3 so I'd be surprised if that happens. The real concern is how they decide to define "professional use" and more importantly how they intend to restrict sales to anyone that falls outside of that definition.

[barehm]

I for one am not too worried. As birdman says, I haven't heard any arguments to reclassify as 1.3. If there is a new hoop to jump through, I know very few qualified people that won't jump through that hoop. It may knock out the random retail customer from willing out a bogus attestation of competency, but the worse case (in my opinion) is going to be a little bit of money on a new certification - whether that's APA, PGI, Dave, someone else, etc.

I have attended the PGI operator's course and overall, don't think it's any replacement for experience, on the job training, common sense, and research. I am in agreement it'd be nice to cover 1.4g pro a bit, but don't know how deep they can get unless they increase the length of the class. I'd argue learning about whether to close hatches on a barge is less applicable to me personally (most of us?) but that's famous last words when someone shoots off a fully loaded grain barge with hatches wide open (see my previous comment about common sense). Everyone has their topics they believe should get more face time. Safety distances based on caliber/breaking effect, appropriately securing your product, etc are applicable to all levels of firework displays.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

The real concern is how they decide to define "professional use".

I think you hit the nail on the head. How do you take a product that is designed and built (by definition!) to "consumer grade" standards, and then magically call it "professional." Makes 0 sense to me.

Is an AOP flame pot really more dangerous than a 1.4G 1.75" mortar?? Or a 7 shot AOP slice compared to a 210 shot 1.4G zipper cake? Seriously... Someone needs to pull their head out and think about this.

Sounds to me like a money grab by creating a new training and licensing bureaucracy to separate us from more of our money.

[jamisonlm3]

Rick, what product is being built to consumer grade standards? The cakes have no spacing unless they're fanned. The single shots have no support base. The shells don't come with a launching tube. While 1.4 pro is very similar to consumer items, at the same time, it isn't consumer. It being more or less dangerous isn't the point. They're built to a different standard than consumer product and have to be treated differently.

The APA put out a clarification late last year about 1.4 pro and this is why I keep thinking we might not like the outcome.

Therefore, UN0431 1.4G and UN0432 1.4S Articles Pyrotechnic for technical purposes or UN0336 1.4G Professional Use Only products permitted under APA Standard 87-1C shall be used only by qualified operators in compliance with NFPA 1123 & 1126 as appropriate, or in accordance with established state and local regulations.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Rick, what product is being built to consumer grade standards?

Okay... Give me a minute to look it up again. I'll post the reference.

[topshelfpyro]

I think the UN0336 professional use only that has the 1000g cakes and small salutes etc classified under it will be the most interesting thing that potentially could "require" a different something.

"Pro" has always been held to "consumer" limitations till now. Places like 76 even put fuses on their "pro" stuff and sold it to anyone. I agree with having requirements like PGI training or a new specialized "training" specific to 1.4 pro would be even better. Requiring proof of some kind of electrical firing system? I've done PGI, J&M training because it was local, and have a 1000+ cue FireTEK system.
All the training is focused on 1.3 which is fine for what it is but i dont care about barges etc. I think it could be improved to make 1.3 and 1.4 pro separate "training". things like stabilizing slices, cakes (1.4 pro are lighter than consumer), mortar rack usage(no MCR) and building, single shot usage, available equipment for each (maybe pros and cons).


Just watch your drunk neighbors lighting their fireworks this year and you will agree as well most DO NOT need access to any "1.4 pro".

[topshelfpyro]

If your not doing a pyromusical display why would you even need "1.4 pro"?

[Birdman]

If your not doing a pyromusical display why would you even need "1.4 pro"?

Before the recent changes to 1.4 pro I would tend to agree with this. Now I can see why just about anyone wouldn't want to get their hands on some of the new cakes. Many of the new ones I've seen are fairly long duration multi-effect cakes which I find aren't the easiest to place into a pyromusical. I feel this could be part of the problem. As I said before, only a relatively small number of people had any interest in 1.4 Pro before. It was never considered to be "the big stuff" a lot of people are looking for. Now though, If someone goes asking for "the big stuff" it can be found in 1.4 pro.

Speaking of 1.4 pro and MCRs, I am probably going to eliminate the two I use for my finale after this year and switch to using some of the new 1.4 pro cakes, if I can still get them. That should save me time and in the end and I will have a nicer finale. Not to mention I can move on from using MCRs without having to build or purchasing new racks. That was actually one of my plans this year. But then I abandoned the idea of scripting to music so there was really no need to purchase any 1.4 pro. It wasn't until I had already purchased all consumer product that I decided to hobble together a soundtrack and script at the last minute. This was only after some of my regular audience was disappointed when I told them there would be no music this year.

[Robbro097]

If your not doing a pyromusical display why would you even need "1.4 pro"?

I did use a cpl comet runs red white and blue mines in shows prior to stepping it up with music but that was mayb a cpl dozen single shots bow with music its a cpl 100 single shots and the need for pro really stands out

[topshelfpyro]

I did use a cpl comet runs red white and blue mines in shows prior to stepping it up with music but that was mayb a cpl dozen single shots bow with music its a cpl 100 single shots and the need for pro really stands out

I agree, if you're shooting to music (vs playing music while shooting- yes, there is a difference) 1.4pro is convenient and gives alot of options with slices and single shots. Single shots can be salvaged from consumer cakes (more hassle but usually cheaper per tube) if needed, slices on the other hand are difficult to create yourself unless you have racks for single shots. I think cans with no tubes are great if the cost is less that the equivalent consumer cans, but will they be since they are called "pro"? lol

[topshelfpyro]

Before the recent changes to 1.4 pro I would tend to agree with this. Now I can see why just about anyone wouldn't want to get their hands on some of the new cakes. Many of the new ones I've seen are fairly long duration multi-effect cakes which I find aren't the easiest to place into a pyromusical. I feel this could be part of the problem. As I said before, only a relatively small number of people had any interest in 1.4 Pro before. It was never considered to be "the big stuff" a lot of people are looking for. Now though, If someone goes asking for "the big stuff" it can be found in 1.4 pro.

Speaking of 1.4 pro and MCRs, I am probably going to eliminate the two I use for my finale after this year and switch to using some of the new 1.4 pro cakes, if I can still get them. That should save me time and in the end and I will have a nicer finale. Not to mention I can move on from using MCRs without having to build or purchasing new racks. That was actually one of my plans this year. But then I abandoned the idea of scripting to music so there was really no need to purchase any 1.4 pro. It wasn't until I had already purchased all consumer product that I decided to hobble together a soundtrack and script at the last minute. This was only after some of my regular audience was disappointed when I told them there would be no music this year.

I wouldn't call 1.4 pro "the big stuff" even with the "little" 6 gram max salutes that are now allowed. Your "local" bootlegger usually has salute cans that are much more and flash broken cakes. the increase in comp limits for some cakes to 1000g is interesting if they don't all wind up being 100+ shot mashups! Being able to buy cans without tubes is interesting if the cost makes sense vs just buying consumer shells and dealing with the packaging waste. What would really be awesome is if we could get the old 2.25" ball shells back for 1.4 pro! I would sell all 800 tubes and racks I own to switch to that! I know 62mm are the equivalent but then I wouldn't have to pay for a tube for every shell everytime anymore.

[Birdman]

I wouldn't call 1.4 pro "the big stuff" even with the "little" 6 gram max salutes that are now allowed. Your "local" bootlegger usually has salute cans that are much more and flash broken cakes. the increase in comp limits for some cakes to 1000g is interesting if they don't all wind up being 100+ shot mashups! Being able to buy cans without tubes is interesting if the cost makes sense vs just buying consumer shells and dealing with the packaging waste. What would really be awesome is if we could get the old 2.25" ball shells back for 1.4 pro! I would sell all 800 tubes and racks I own to switch to that! I know 62mm are the equivalent but then I wouldn't have to pay for a tube for every shell everytime anymore.

I get what you're saying but I was referring to products within the legally to sell and purchase realm of things. I've already come across a couple youtube videos of people flaunting their 1000g cake. Of course the comment section was full of questions like "where did you get a 1000g cake?".

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Rick, what product is being built to consumer grade standards?

Here's the quote upon which I based the comments I made.

"Articles pyrotechnic: Pyrotechnic devices for professional use that are similar to consumer fireworks in the chemical composition and construction, but not intended for consumer use, that meet the weight limits for consumer fireworks, but are not labeled as such, and that are classified as UN0431 or UN0432 under 49 CFR 172.101."

https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/articles-pyrotechnic#:~:text=Articles%20pyrotechnic%20shall %20mean%20pyrotechnic,classified%20as%20UN0431%20o r%20UN0432

[displayfireworks1]

Here's the quote upon which I based the comments I made.

"Articles pyrotechnic: Pyrotechnic devices for professional use that are similar to consumer fireworks in the chemical composition and construction, but not intended for consumer use, that meet the weight limits for consumer fireworks, but are not labeled as such, and that are classified as UN0431 or UN0432 under 49 CFR 172.101."

https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/articles-pyrotechnic#:~:text=Articles%20pyrotechnic%20shall %20mean%20pyrotechnic,classified%20as%20UN0431%20o r%20UN0432

That definition of Articles of Pyrotechnics may now need updated. While I am currently not seeing some of the new AP products, a recent conversation I had with a retail location told me he recently purchase a case of bulk packed (no mortar) canister artillery shells at 100 Gram instead of the usual 60 Gram. At the moment he is choosing not to sell AP products but rather is purchasing for his own use when he does his local shows for profit like weddings , football games etc. He further stated he is going to wait until next year to see how the industry responds to these type of products.

[topshelfpyro]

That definition of Articles of Pyrotechnics may now need updated. While I am currently not seeing some of the new AP products, a recent conversation I had with a retail location told me he recently purchase a case of bulk packed (no mortar) canister artillery shells at 100 Gram instead of the usual 60 Gram. At the moment he is choosing not to sell AP products but rather is purchasing for his own use when he does his local shows for profit like weddings , football games etc. He further stated he is going to wait until next year to see how the industry responds to these type of products.

Bootleg shells? I've seen alot of 100g bootleg shells.... The comp limits in the finished device is still 60 grams and 1.75" diameter per APA.......

3.2.1.21 - Shell
Shell – a device designed to be launched from a tube (mortar) and containing pyrotechnic and/or
non-pyrotechnic components.
Attribute Requirements
1 Composition weight in the finished device 60 grams
6 Lift charge permitted Yes
7 Lift charge weight per device 20 grams
11 Propellant charge permitted No
14 Burst charge permitted Yes
15 Secondary burst charge permitted Yes
16 Burst charge weight per device 15 grams
20 Reports --
21 Reports permitted Yes
22 Weight per report 0.130 grams
23 Multiple reports permitted Yes
27 Multiple report weight (individual) 0.130 grams
30 Tubes --
31 Tube required No
32 Multiple tubes permitted No
35 Driver required No
36 Multiple drivers permitted No
40 Inserts and Shells --
41 Inserts permitted Yes
42 Shell required Yes
43 Shell diameter (O.D.) 44.75millimeters
44 Inner shells permitted Yes
50 Base, Spike and Handle Requirements --
51 Attached base required No
52 Spikes, handles, or sticks required No
53 Spikes, handles, or sticks permitted No
60 Ignition Requirements --
62 Ignition fuse permitted Yes
65 Electric igniter permitted No
70 Chemical Restrictions --
71 Chemical restrictions No
72 Restrictions See General Requirements for lift and burst charge
restrictions.
80 Multi-Shot and Series --
81 Device permitted in a multi-shot (Cake) No
82 Device permitted in a multi-shot (Combination) No
83 Series applications permitted Yes
90 Special Conditions --
91 Are there any special conditions Yes
92 Special conditions Shells can be
 cylindrical or spherical in shape,
 with or without external attachments,
 can be made with or without a lift charge, and
 burst charge cannot exceed 25 percent of the
composition.
100 Packaging --
101 Packaging limits Yes
103 Composition weight per inner packaging 400 gram

[topshelfpyro]

Here is the link to the actual standard again in PDF form if anyone wants to read it.....https://www.americanpyro.com/assets/docs/APAStd871/APA%2087-1C%20Final%20Entertaintment%20Industry%20and%20Tec hnical%20Pyrotechnics%20Standard.pdf

Something interesting is that lift charges etc don't have to be just black powder.......

[topshelfpyro]

I get what you're saying but I was referring to products within the legally to sell and purchase realm of things. I've already come across a couple youtube videos of people flaunting their 1000g cake. Of course the comment section was full of questions like "where did you get a 1000g cake?".

I get that but what alot don't know/understand is.....if its legal, its all the same......7" shells have the same comp limit as a 4, 5, or 6" shell in consumer stuff. It's the $$ grabbing retailers that will cause problems for the "pro" stuff when they sell "pro" to random "buddy" and they go and brag about their special stuff......the comp limits on "pro" shells are the same as consumer shells but you no longer have to buy a tube for every 6 shells....unfortunately at the 1 retailer I checked the "pro" version of a particular shell (double break can) cost almost the same per shell as just buying the consumer shell and dealing with all the packaging waste.......literal pennies difference.

I haven't gone back and looked at what the previous limits were for individual items in cakes but the new 1k limit overall for the cakes and not having to be spaced could be exciting. I want a large bore Nishiki 1000g cake by a manufacture that makes good Nishiki effects.....

[Rick_In_Tampa]

That definition of Articles of Pyrotechnics may now need updated.

That may be true, but... I did a little more research and that quote from the Law Insider is a direct quote from the actual governing body. Specifically, CFR 172-101 Title 27 Chapter II Subchapter C Part 555 Subpart B.

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-27/chapter-II/subchapter-C/part-555/subpart-B

Part of the problem is we have organizations like the APA (which you acknowledge is NOT a governing body) publishing "standards" that people like us take as the gospel truth, when the truth is, the APA doesn't have any real authority to dictate anything to anyone. If I'm wrong on that point, please correct me.

By the way... The edit date info is "Displaying title 27, up to date as of 6/27/2023. Title 27 was last amended 3/24/2023." So it's pretty current.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

While 1.4 pro is very similar to consumer items, at the same time, it isn't consumer. It being more or less dangerous isn't the point.

Hopefully you had a chance to read the reference. As I indicated; and as my reference states; AOP items are built to consumer standards. So if they are no more or less dangerous than "regular" consumer products, why shouldn't they be available to regular consumers?


They're built to a different standard than consumer product and have to be treated differently.

Once again, not according to my references. They may be different in that they have a different way of igniting, but is that what should make them "pro use only?" If so, why are they still considered 1.4G? Can't have it both ways.

[Birdman]

At one time 1.4 pro was simply 1.4 consumer "dressed in pro clothing" but that is no longer the case. It can now contain types and amounts of composition that are not allowed in any 1.4 consumer product, even if you dressed them in the proper clothing. I tend agree though, if there is no reason to transport or store these products differently then I don't understand why we can't have similar products with the same composition on the shelves (as long as they are dressed in 1.4 consumer clothing). I'm pretty sure that would resolve a lot of the concerns people have about these products falling into the hands of the less than qualified. Who would bother trying to get the pro version when you could go to any store, buy it off the shelf, light fuse and get away. I'm pretty sure it would be the same as it was and the only people that would be interested in the pro version would be those of us that want to use it as it was intended.

This whole situations reminds a bit of states that allow medical use of marijuana but not recreational use. Anyone can get a prescription and many are doing it just be able to purchase, possess and use it legally. States that allow recreational use don't have people looking to prove they have a medical reason to get it even though some recreational states have certain marijuana products that are only approved for medical use. There's just no point in jumping through those hoops just to get a slightly different version of the same thing.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

I don't know... I guess I'll quit beating the dead horse and shut up about this. The whole thing just seems silly to me. Just because you need an initiator to light the stuff, it's called "pro use only." Yet no one can define what a "professional" backyard shooter is. The word "professional" used to mean someone that got paid to do what they do. Lord knows no one is paying me to do these shows! I wish... Okay. I'll shut up now.

[Engineer Cat]

Yet no one can define what a "professional" backyard shooter is. The word "professional" used to mean someone that got paid to do what they do. Lord knows no one is paying me to do these shows! I wish... Okay. I'll shut up now.

So I started crewing on pro shoots and get paid for it... BUT when I shoot my backyard shows, no one is paying me. Don't know where I would fit in here. LOL

Anyway here's some pictures to make things even more confusing. This is a Wizard 1.4 pro cake. 81 shots. It's way heavier than my other cakes in the show which are all "consumer". From the bottom view you can see the tubes are tightly packed in there. I also found it odd that there is no wood on the bottom, just cardboard, and not a very thick piece either. No place on the packaging or the box it came in does it say how many grams it is, like all the consumer cakes say what they are. So I don't know how many grams it is. Also there's this very confusing sticker at the eport.... (electric firing only)(professional use only) YET there's a visco fuse that bypasses the eport..... ?????

6689

6690

6691

[displayfireworks1]

You guys keep trying to make logical sense of all of this. It does not always work that way with pyrotechnic products, particularly on professional products. I'm surprised you didn't find a UL Approved label on it. LOL...
.
The National Fireworks Association recently helped define who should be eligible to purchase these products. This is good. The industry including me is adjusting and attempting to regulate itself by setting some standard for others to follow when determining how to sell these new products. Remember in United States there are no pyrotechnic schools or somewhere to go learn advanced pyrotechnics . Any training I ever see comes from those within the industry. Speaking of those within the industry , there are some that don't want this AP thing to progress for a multitude of reasons, most of those reasons are of a competitive nature. Still others that work in the display industry think they are the only ones competent enough to use these products. They are not happy that dude with the Cobra and computer can do the same thing we do on the pro displays.
I was on this Articles of Pyrotechnic training in 2018 and now 5 years later it is finally here. The industry may finally recognize the advanced pyrotechnic hobbyist. Actually I should say the NFA is recognizing us. Education and the proper equipment are the way to go.

[Birdman]

Speaking of fuses on 1.4 pro items, I bought two zipper cakes, think they were 76 pro line, that only had a fuse. There was no e-port to be found.

[RalphieJ]

I've been following this forum since March 2017. I live a mile away from a small display company that's been in business since 1920. The current proprietor is only the 3rd owner. Being a small company, a large portion of his income is from $3K (the minimum) to under $10K. The bigger shows on the 4th pay the bills, the smaller shows (weddings, graduations, small municipalities, carnivals, etc.) allow for breathing room in the event of rain, being that he offers refunds if a rain date is not practical or gets rained out, and also allows for a more comfortable living. This is a cutthroat business, where competitors are constantly trying to poach your customers, often offering false promises of larger shell counts. This is especially true of the the larger national/international companies, and, of course, the regulators are constantly on their backs. His insurance fees are 25% of the contract price of the shows. That's before inventory, before labor, before permits, before truck rentals, before property taxes and insurance on structures. And now hobbyists, who pay none of these expenses, are willing to present professional-quality shows that snatch the life-blood business away from established commercial companies? OF COURSE the APA and it's commercial company members are trying to limit the purchase of 1.4 Pro items. What the heck did you think would happen?

[Birdman]

I've been following this forum since March 2017. I live a mile away from a small display company that's been in business since 1920. The current proprietor is only the 3rd owner. Being a small company, a large portion of his income is from $3K (the minimum) to under $10K. The bigger shows on the 4th pay the bills, the smaller shows (weddings, graduations, small municipalities, carnivals, etc.) allow for breathing room in the event of rain, being that he offers refunds if a rain date is not practical or gets rained out, and also allows for a more comfortable living. This is a cutthroat business, where competitors are constantly trying to poach your customers, often offering false promises of larger shell counts. This is especially true of the the larger national/international companies, and, of course, the regulators are constantly on their backs. His insurance fees are 25% of the contract price of the shows. That's before inventory, before labor, before permits, before truck rentals, before property taxes and insurance on structures. And now hobbyists, who pay none of these expenses, are willing to present professional-quality shows that snatch the life-blood business away from established commercial companies? OF COURSE the APA and it's commercial company members are trying to limit the purchase of 1.4 Pro items. What the heck did you think would happen?

But the hobbyist is no longer a hobbyist at that point and would be subject to all of the same expenses and scrutiny.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

From the ATF website -

"Consumer fireworks are classified by DOT as fireworks UN0336 or UN0337."

"27 CFR 555.11, “Pyrotechnic devices for professional use similar to consumer fireworks in chemical composition and construction but not intended for consumer use. Such articles meeting the weight limits for consumer fireworks but not labeled as such and classified by U.S. Department of Transportation regulations in 49 CFR 172.101 as UN0431 or UN0432.”

Your cake is labeled UN0336 which (according to the ATF) means it's a consumer cake. It also says it's "professional use only" which means it should be labeled UN0431 or UN0432. So, it's clear to me that no one knows what the hell to call these things anymore. :confused:

[JustinH]

Has anyone received more information on this topic?
In my opinion, these products are exactly what more advanced hobbyists are looking for. I just hear more rumor that they will be reclassified and looking for more information.

[BMoore]

Has anyone received more information on this topic?
In my opinion, these products are exactly what more advanced hobbyists are looking for. I just hear more rumor that they will be reclassified and looking for more information.

I've not heard anything new, but it seems like every year there is some gloom and doom scenario that are based on half truths and speculation. A lot of these issues are hot topics leading up to July 4th and then they are more or less forgotten about for another year. It sure seems like there is an awful lot of product development going on in this category for it to be in peril, but we will see.

[JustinH]

I've not heard anything new, but it seems like every year there is some gloom and doom scenario that are based on half truths and speculation. A lot of these issues are hot topics leading up to July 4th and then they are more or less forgotten about for another year. It sure seems like there is an awful lot of product development going on in this category for it to be in peril, but we will see.


Seems like it.
I'm seeing new products all the time, and I have an order arriving soon. Just seems like comments pop up frequently saying 1.4pro is going away and I just can't find anything to verify. So that's probably good news.

[Knightmare]

1.4GPRO is awesome!

These are the cakes I have always wanted.

My suggestion for keeping these around is the manufacturers should remove the salutes from these products.

This is an unpopular opinion I am sure but stupid people do ruin things for everyone.

[displayfireworks1]

As we slowly approach the fireworks season I am waiting to see how retail outlets go about selling these. They are forbidden to be on a retail shelf for the average consumer etc. Recently I talked to owner of a retail store. He told me they are on a shelf but they are on a shelf behind the checkout area. I am not sure that will meet the criteria for, not for average consumer sales or not. Now a customer is going to visually see these and ask “How do I buy those”? And then you refuse them sales “Oh those are for professionals”. Sounds like you will make a customer angry but having them visualize a better product and refuse to sell it to them.
I have a program to teach a class online for those locations that want to train some of their customers specific to the AP products they are selling. Problem is some retail owners do not want to do anything past standing at the cash register and ring up sales , let alone set up a day for a class and training. Also do not assume because they are selling fireworks , that they themselves are proficient at using them.
I do not see these products going away anytime soon. I do see the CPSC watching how these products are sold and/or displayed.

[Salutecake]

Like everything this too will evolve. I am hoping the products not only stay around but get better and do so without many more rules and regulations. Investing in a class like Dave's seems to be a small price to pay to get your hands on what should be not only a harder hitting product but a product made with a little more care.

You know the locks on your doors at home only keep the honest honest, and with that said you also know people are going to get their hands on these products, do something stupid and then something will change and usually not for the better for the rest of us. At least taking Dave's class, gives a person a better understanding of the product and what to expect.

I think Dave needs to get some posters for these stores -- If you want the good stuff, take my course at xxxxxx, then come back with your certificate.

[Knightmare]

What will happen to regular consumer fireworks now?

200 Gram? - 350 Gram? - 500 Gram?

In my humble opinion, with the advent of 1.4GPRO, they should start allowing consumer fireworks to be flash broken.

No salutes for consumers, but nice flash broken consumer fireworks.

Nothing too crazy here, but something with a kick for the general buying public.

[Knightmare]

I think Dave needs to get some posters for these stores. If you want the good stuff, take my course at xxxxxx, then come back with your certificate.

That would be an awesome idea!

[KDirk]

I'm looking forward to ordering and using some AP product this year, and have taken Dave's course so now have the needed "credential" to do so from vendors he has made appropriate arrangements with. It would be nice if a wholesaler closer to me was on that list, and maybe eventually there will be.

The alternative is for me to take a PGI course geared to 1.4G AP which has wider acceptance at wholesalers, but not for 1.3, which at this point I'm not all that interested in, as I have no venue appropriate to shoot commercial pro pyro. The barriers to an ATF 54 license are just steep enough to keep me from operating at that level, for now.

At any rate, I share the sentiment that I'd like to see these AP products get better (and with compound cakes, there seems to be a lot of room to do some very cool stuff) and am hoping we will not see a dialing back or what has now been "teased" in the market. I'd also share the concern some retailers will not be handling this as well as needed, which will lead to unauthorized purchases and stupid mistakes which will invite scrutiny that is likely to harm the interests of serious hobbyists who are operating responsibly and within the rules.

It is apparent to me from some YouTube amateur videos that products in the AP category have found their way to retail grey market where those who haven't "put in the work" have been somehow getting AP class product. I expect this does present a risk of the product category getting reigned in, if a few bad accidents occur and are highly publicized.

[BMoore]

As a type 54 holder, I've not paid a whole lot of attention to AP, but that is starting to change. There are some formerly 1.3 cakes and slices (aka baby B) that are now being reclassed as AP. I'm also seeing a LOT more innovation and new effects in the AP category while 1.3 and 1.4 development seems to be going stale at the moment. As for what the vetting process should look like, I have mixed feelings. Overall, only a small percentage of consumers should have access to these products or people are going to get hurt. I think readily advertising in store settings is a bad approach. On the other hand, if you make the process too difficult they might as well stay 1.3. It's going to be interesting to see how this evolves, but the manufacturers and importers wouldn't be investing this heavily in R&D if they felt 1.4pro was going to do anything but expand in the market.

[KDirk]

Having just read the recently posted thread here on "value of PGI training class", I now am of the understanding that these courses apparently don't even address 1.4G AP specifically. Are most vendors of AP product simply honoring proof of having taken a PGI course as a sufficient credential to legally purchase these items? Or is there some other path - besides Dave's video course (which I've done) - that opens up the ability to purchase this class of product at pretty much any vendor that handles it? It doesn't look to my like there is even an agreed upon industry standard (amongst retailers and wholesalers) to address what the proof required should be. I'd think the future of the AP market would benefit greatly from a clear cut, streamlined process that one knows they need to go through in order to qualify for access to these items.

I was previously of the impression a PGI course was the route to demonstrating the level of proficiency expected by those selling 1.4 AP, but it seems that isn't what such classes are geared towards based upon what I'm reading in that thread. If proof of having taken a PGI class is being treated as th universal "secret handshake" to buy AP, then it would be nice if vendors just came right out and stated that. As it stands now, most vendor websites I've looked at are fairly ambiguous in stating what they specifically are wanting to see as proof of qualification. Or is this all just too new to have sorted these details out yet?

[topshelfpyro]

The PGI course, from what I have experienced, is universally accepted by vendors of 1.4 AP. (They(vendors) do not have to require anything but I am glad they mostly do). No the actual PGI course does not currently address AP specifically but it was discussed this year about incorporating specific AP knowledge into the course. The first "course" I took was put on by a local vendor and "Pyrotechnico" mostly so you could buy AP from the local vendor and potentially be recruited by pyrotechnico as a shooter(grunt).....you couldn't fail the course LOL. the actual PGI course is much better IMHO with actual demos of 1.3 and you can shoot a 1.3 shell yourself there. I use alot of AP and broken up cakes for single shots and it's great stuff. Compound cakes from what i've seen are for the cul-de-sac guys as a pissing contest just like OL cakes are now. Not really for a pyromusical but maybe could be used for the average "i'm shooting some fireworks while some music is playing"

[KDirk]

Thanks for that, it offers some clarity on what the vendors are expecting in terms of proving oneself qualified. I've no aversion to taking a PGI course if/when I find one locally. I just wanted to make sure that taking it would serve my purpose of having certification to buy AP anywhere that offers it. Dave's course is perfectly sufficient (and easy enough to get) but being relatively new yet is limited to a handful of vendors who've agreed to accept it. I don't mind ordering from one (or more) of those and having product shipped, but having a local source would obviously be more convenient.

It would also open up access to a greater variety of product, as each vendor has a specific lineup they are offering, and I'm finding it difficult so far to source everything I'd like from one place. I realize it's early in the season yet, and I'm seeing the various online catalogs fill in with more product within the last week, but overall selection of AP items at most vendors seems pretty light yet. Some items listed are so new they don't yet have full descriptions or videos posted, either.

Regarding compound cakes, I'll shamelessly admit I love big and loud, so maybe I'm an unwitting entrant in the pissing contest. But I use that stuff for the finale, or to punctuate a couple of key moments during the show. I am mostly looking forward to having access to "airburst/thunder/snowball/tuono" cakes, but depending on my venue this coming 4th (presently working that angle for a better location than previous years) I may do some fan type cakes as well. Will be a matter of safe range and clearance to use those. If the savings on mortar shells is great enough versus what I can get in discounts on retail 1.4 shells, I may buy some of those as well. But I do like the retail shells for the variety available in one package, even if I'm paying needlessly for the retail package and launch tubes.

[topshelfpyro]

Thanks for that, it offers some clarity on what the vendors are expecting in terms of proving oneself qualified. I've no aversion to taking a PGI course if/when I find one locally. I just wanted to make sure that taking it would serve my purpose of having certification to buy AP anywhere that offers it. Dave's course is perfectly sufficient (and easy enough to get) but being relatively new yet is limited to a handful of vendors who've agreed to accept it. I don't mind ordering from one (or more) of those and having product shipped, but having a local source would obviously be more convenient.

It would also open up access to a greater variety of product, as each vendor has a specific lineup they are offering, and I'm finding it difficult so far to source everything I'd like from one place. I realize it's early in the season yet, and I'm seeing the various online catalogs fill in with more product within the last week, but overall selection of AP items at most vendors seems pretty light yet. Some items listed are so new they don't yet have full descriptions or videos posted, either.

Regarding compound cakes, I'll shamelessly admit I love big and loud, so maybe I'm an unwitting entrant in the pissing contest. But I use that stuff for the finale, or to punctuate a couple of key moments during the show. I am mostly looking forward to having access to "airburst/thunder/snowball/tuono" cakes, but depending on my venue this coming 4th (presently working that angle for a better location than previous years) I may do some fan type cakes as well. Will be a matter of safe range and clearance to use those. If the savings on mortar shells is great enough versus what I can get in discounts on retail 1.4 shells, I may buy some of those as well. But I do like the retail shells for the variety available in one package, even if I'm paying needlessly for the retail package and launch tubes.

mortar shells are the same as the retail shells without all the fancy packaging and so far not that much cheaper. That may change in the future but currently same stuff. If you want the nicest bursts go with 60/62mm single shots in AP very high and nice. yea I can definitely see the compund cake usage just not in what I like to do to music. Just shooting in the subdivision on the street sure thing but they are to varied to be much use to me in a pyromusical. Not sure where an actual PGI course would be close to you outside of PGI convention, which if you've never been you should bite the bullet and do it. Your probably close to spirit of 76 and they would take a display company training certificate for AP or PGI from my experience. Most of their crap is over priced even at gold level but I read they have changed their discount tiers for this year. Of course you can only compare apples to apples price wise so their house brands are hard to compare at other vendors.

[KDirk]

Got it. SO76 is my geographically closest wholesaler. I bought from them last year (all consumer case packs, no AP), and picked up in person. I was generally satisfied with what I got for the money at "gold tier". But in looking at other vendors online, am finding pricing that looks markedly better, even if not making a 1:1 exact comparison on product. Not sure how much of the price difference can be ascribed to prices coming down after the supply chain debacles during COVID driving them way up, but suspect that may also be a factor.

Getting back to certification, you mentioned a training cert form a display company. I may have an in for that, a local acquaintance I've made works with a pro display outfit that does some municipal 4th of July displays, and has kind of "suggested" in passing that I should come down to their one big shoot this summer. I gather this is an effort to recruit some extra labor, and I don't necessarily mind that, as it gets me an inside look at the 1.3 pro side of things. If I pursue this angle, and end up on a setup/shoot site crew as an assistant, is it likely the outfit (if I pass muster with them) would be in a position to issue such a cert, assuming I meet whatever criteria they've set for being on their crew? That may be my other option, and would also get me some contacts in the pro circle that would be of benefit if I go further into this as a more serious pursuit. Even if I don't, I can't deny l'd enjoy a chance to be "on the inside" (to some extent) on a pro shoot, having always been fascinated by the finer points of how it was all done.

[Knightmare]

What will happen to consumer fireworks?

I saw these compound cakes on YouTube. They pretty much make you forget about consumer fireworks altogether. That's how good they all are.

Will they ever let consumer product be flash broken now?

[KDirk]

I don't think AP does much to imperil straight consumer product. Further regulation by busybodies at the behest of paranoid Karen's (and number of stupid accidents that get publicized) will probably have more effect on that going forward. How many people will actually go to the extra effort of getting a cert, having a proper firing system (and not one of the inexpensive import setups all over eBay, or even Ignite) just for a once a year (mostly July 4th, maybe NYE) shoot? Maybe I'm underestimating the interest, but it seems that advanced hobbyists like myself (and others of similar level interest here) are a fairly small chunk of the market, and I don't really expect it to get huge simply due to the costs and extra hoops to be jumped through.

I do wonder how many smaller municipal displays on tight budgets may utilize some AP product going forward. The suburban city where I live has done a July 4th fireworks show forever. Back around 2008 when the economy tanked, they stopped allocating budget for it, and went to a donation based model where sponsors kick in the money to pay for the fireworks show. From that point onward, if I'm being brutally honest, the show sucked. They never had the money to come close to the previous standard set when the city funded it directly. That's largely what precipitated my tendency to start shooting a lot of my own fireworks, as even my smallish consumer product shoot was more enjoyable than the stripped down, half hearted effort show the city was putting on. And, I didn't need to fight crowds for a decent viewing spot or get gouged on drinks and snacks by doing my lawn.

My point being that I'd not be surprised if such smaller shows on limited budgets start using some of this AP product, as the pro outfits doing these shoots obviously have access to the AP items, and could offer a bit more bang for the buck. I'd be interested to see what those here who do pro shoots think of that possibility, likely or no?

At any rate, the AP items are finally getting noticeably better, now that some real R&D is taking place, after a slow start that was further stunted by the COVID mess. This makes AP potentially more suitable for use in smaller pro shows, and since strictly consumer product is subject to a fairly limited hard cap on amount of powder, it will not see any significant improvement in performance from here on, unless regulations are relaxed. I consider the latter unlikely given societal trends over safetyism, so AP is bound to be a growth category for the advanced hobbyists or pro who needs some less costly items for a small commercial shoot. Even at that, I figure it remains a fairly small segment of the overall industry, unless pros start using a lot of it in lieu of 1.3.

[Salutecake]

KDirk, I agree with your point of the use of more 1.3 users using the 1.4 Pro line stuff. For my own show I plan on switching or buying more pro stuff than consumer stuff. I am waiting to see more video's on the 1.4 Pro stuff before I purchase or switch to all Pro andI am hoping the Pro stuff catches on and stays with us.
Right now, and hopefully that is changing as I write, the past AP products, to me, immitated the 1.3 cakes. Many of the 1.3 cakes shoot straight up, might be only 2 effects, and are only 10 to 20 secs. Consumer cakes can get up to 3 minutes and spread there stuff throughout the sky.
So again, maybe it has happened already, Pro stuff that shoot longer (like the combo cakes) and have a better fill the sky effect.
If you have a firing system why not use the Pro, plug and play to get a better event time to effect time, avoid poking everthing, a little more punch ---
I think the average person on the 4th will still go out and buy a bunch of consumer stuff, unless they start getting into like the rest of us here.

[jr99svt]

Heard the other Day from one of my distributors that articles will be classified by the BATFE now. 1.4 AP is being found for sale on the shelves of 1.4 consumer only stores.

[Knightmare]

Heard the other day from one of my distributors that articles will be classified by the BATFE now. 1.4 AP is being found for sale on the shelves of 1.4 consumer only stores.

Well, I figured people would ruin it by doing something rather stupid.

Selling this to consumers who have no idea about safety is dangerous, especially because lots of these items have salutes.

[topshelfpyro]

What's going to ruin AP is the greedy ass retailers. When I was at PGI last year I spoke to a couple of relatively local retailers that were stoked about AP having salutes......I told them point blank YOU ARE THE PROBLEM if you want to sell salutes take the risk and sell OL's and leave the rest alone.

Currently up to the retailer who they sell AP to and what they "REQUIRE" for purchase

[Knightmare]

What's going to ruin AP is the greedy ass retailers. When I was at PGI last year I spoke to a couple of relatively local retailers that were stoked about AP having salutes......I told them point blank YOU ARE THE PROBLEM if you want to sell salutes take the risk and sell OL's and leave the rest alone.

Currently up to the retailer who they sell AP to and what they "REQUIRE" for purchase


I wish they would leave the salutes out of the 1.4GPRO.

Cakes could tip over, or someone, like a small child, could find an insert that didn't go off and try lighting it.

This recently happened to a small child and he lost a hand.

Then you have retailers selling this to everyone which increases the likelihood of this scenario described.

[topshelfpyro]

I wish they would leave the salutes out of the 1.4GPRO.

Cakes could tip over, or someone, like a small child, could find an insert that didn't go off and try lighting it.

This recently happened to a small child and he lost a hand.

Then you have retailers selling this to everyone which increases the likelihood of this scenario described.

I don't mind the salutes in AP, I mind the greedy retailers and the moron parents that have no idea what they are doing same as with all the OL stuff morons buy and let kids play with. It doesn't have to be a salute, a moron parent gave a kid a can to hand throw like they were doin and it blew the kids hand of. Just a regular color shell......

[JustinH]

Heard the other Day from one of my distributors that articles will be classified by the BATFE now. 1.4 AP is being found for sale on the shelves of 1.4 consumer only stores.

Did they give any more information? Time frame? What it would be classified as etc?

Figured it was only a matter of time before the feds got involved.

[jr99svt]

Did they give any more information? Time frame? What it would be classified as etc?

Figured it was only a matter of time before the feds got involved.

If the ATF is going to reclassify, it's going to be 1.3.
Was told that if it's made and ready to ship or on the water it will be allowed to come in status quo, for a little while anyway. (Burecracy is slow) It sounds like late this year it will no longer be allowed as 1.4. There weren't a whole lot of details, (will it be all AP? Or just giant OL cakes and salutes? He wasn't sure)

I don't care about AP cakes and salutes, I only care about slices, comets and mines. Those giant AP cakes that have 400 shots and 18 effects in every row just don't work in a musical show. I can get way better salutes than the crappy ones that are in those cakes, as no AP salute is supposed to be over 6g, and China doesn't care what the retailers order. So there are a bunch of supposedly legal OLs on store shelves, with retailers saying you need training, wink wink as they ring up Joe public for a 2000g compound cake, laced with larger than 6g salutes. It was only going to last for so long, Until the Feds say, ok that's enough. We will do it if no one else will.

[Arclight]

If the ATF is going to reclassify, it's going to be 1.3.
Was told that if it's made and ready to ship or on the water it will be allowed to come in status quo, for a little while anyway. (Burecracy is slow) It sounds like late this year it will no longer be allowed as 1.4. There weren't a whole lot of details, (will it be all AP? Or just giant OL cakes and salutes? He wasn't sure)

I don't care about AP cakes and salutes, I only care about slices, comets and mines. Those giant AP cakes that have 400 shots and 18 effects in every row just don't work in a musical show. I can get way better salutes than the crappy ones that are in those cakes, as no AP salute is supposed to be over 6g, and China doesn't care what the retailers order. So there are a bunch of supposedly legal OLs on store shelves, with retailers saying you need training, wink wink as they ring up Joe public for a 2000g compound cake, laced with larger than 6g salutes. It was only going to last for so long, Until the Feds say, ok that's enough. We will do it if no one else will.

I would agree there. I think the issue ATF is going to have with Pro 1.4 is how it is marketed and the channels it is sold through. My impression is that they prefer to see "professional" items primarily marketed to people that could be considered "trained" in some way. If Jimbo's Fireworks and Propane is willing to sell anything on the truck to anyone, it's going to encourage a crackdown. Meanwhile, spicy 1.4 could be sold through a company that sells spark machines and theater tech for decades without an issue.

[RalphieJ]

I would not be surprised one bit if display companies are behind this.

Can you blame them?

[topshelfpyro]

Isn't UN0431 (1.4 pro) already classified as 1.3 in China or did that change again? It's imported as 1.3 and then "reclassified" after its here in the states? Or has all that changed

[Birdman]

I don't care about AP cakes and salutes, I only care about slices, comets and mines. Those giant AP cakes that have 400 shots and 18 effects in every row just don't work in a musical show.

This has been my biggest disappointment with the new AP coming out. Most of it is long duration multiple effect cakes that don't easily fit into a show that's scripted to music. I recently reviewed a price list and only found a couple of the new items that I believe would be suitable for this purpose. I haven't dug into any scripting yet this year so maybe I will find more as dig in and really start trying to match these cakes to my script. Generally speaking, if it's over 30 seconds in duration and has multiple effects, it's not going easily fit into a show scripted to music. I just hope if they reclassify they don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Unfortunately I foresee a situation where it's just easier to change the regulations of everything falling under this classification rather then segmenting the products into different classifications with differing regulations. It appears this is one of those situations where some has been given enough rope to hang themselves. This reminds me of saying my mother use to tell me when I thought someone might be taking advantage of a situation....give them enough rope and eventually they will hang themselves. That seems exactly what could be going on here.

[JustinH]

This has been my biggest disappointment with the new AP coming out. Most of it is long duration multiple effect cakes that don't easily fit into a show that's scripted to music. I recently reviewed a price list and only found a couple of the new items that I believe would be suitable for this purpose. I haven't dug into any scripting yet this year so maybe I will find more as dig in and really start trying to match these cakes to my script. Generally speaking, if it's over 30 seconds in duration and has multiple effects, it's not going easily fit into a show scripted to music. I just hope if they reclassify they don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Unfortunately I foresee a situation where it's just easier to change the regulations of everything falling under this classification rather then segmenting the products into different classifications with differing regulations. It appears this is one of those situations where some has been given enough rope to hang themselves. This reminds me of saying my mother use to tell me when I thought someone might be taking advantage of a situation....give them enough rope and eventually they will hang themselves. That seems exactly what could be going on here.

It can be a disappointment, but it isn't a reason to want the products unavailable for purchase. I see too many comments from people basically saying "well it doesn't work in a pyromusical, so it shouldn't be available" like that's the sole reason anyone would want to purchase. Shows can be done and are often done without music, people should be able to use whatever they want.

[jr99svt]

It can be a disappointment, but it isn't a reason to want the products unavailable for purchase. I see too many comments from people basically saying "well it doesn't work in a pyromusical, so it shouldn't be available" like that's the sole reason anyone would want to purchase. Shows can be done and are often done without music, people should be able to use whatever they want.

I never said they should be gone, I just don't care about them because they don't suit my needs. And you can have anything you want, you just have to play the game and get your ATF.

[JustinH]

I never said they should be gone, I just don't care about them because they don't suit my needs. And you can have anything you want, you just have to play the game and get your ATF.

My response wasn't directed at you. I've just heard a lot of that. I don't think the game even makes sense. 1.4pro is not a problem that needs more pointless regulation.

[Birdman]

My response wasn't directed at you. I've just heard a lot of that. I don't think the game even makes sense. 1.4pro is not a problem that needs more pointless regulation.

The concern is too many people essentially treating these products as if they were consumer 1.4. There's a reason this product falls under a different classification. It's intended for a specific type of use and user. There was already enough debate over what that specific use and user is. Creating more attention to that debate is not likely going to be helpful under these circumstances. These new products have much broader appeal then the AP of yesterday. That broad appeal, along with people willing to meet that demand, has a very real potential to lead to even heavier handed regulations.

[JustinH]

The concern is too many people essentially treating these products as if they were consumer 1.4. There's a reason this product falls under a different classification. It's intended for a specific type of use and user. There was already enough debate over what that specific use and user is. Creating more attention to that debate is not likely going to be helpful under these circumstances. These new products have much broader appeal then the AP of yesterday. That broad appeal, along with people willing to meet that demand, has a very real potential to lead to even heavier handed regulations.


My only real thought here is, is it even needed? There currently isn't an actual law that regulates who can purchase these products. So it's self regulating and basically is consumer. If there isn't a law defining it, then it isn't really any different currently. But my point is, are more regulations even needed? Have there been more accidents? Injuries? Sure, reloadable 3 and 4" salutes and large shells probably shouldn't be available to the public. But does a larger composition cake, sometimes with small airbursts, make any real difference in a need for regulation? I don't believe it does.

[jr99svt]

. I don't think the game even makes sense. 1.4pro is not a problem that needs more pointless regulation.

If 1.4 AP is making it into the hands of Joe public that has no training and no understanding, it absolutely is a problem. Retailers not following the rules absolutely is a problem. If you cant follow the rules, the AP should be restricted to those who will. As someone who has had a 54 since 2003, and had 2 surprise visits and 7 compliance inspections, it's really not that hard. Do what you are supposed to do, and there is no issue.

[JustinH]

If 1.4 AP is making it into the hands of Joe public that has no training and no understanding, it absolutely is a problem. Retailers not following the rules absolutely is a problem. If you cant follow the rules, the AP should be restricted to those who will. As someone who has had a 54 since 2003, and had 2 surprise visits and 7 compliance inspections, it's really not that hard. Do what you are supposed to do, and there is no issue.

Please read my statement above. If it's essentially consumer now, and it isn't causing additional problems, then why make a solution?

[jr99svt]

It's not consumer. Consumer is rated up to 500g. A 2000g compound cake with salutes is not consumer. It's literally being made in 1.3 factories.

[JustinH]

It's not consumer. Consumer is rated up to 500g. A 2000g compound cake with salutes is not consumer. It's literally being made in 1.3 factories.

Yet, it's under 1.4g in the states and has no legal definition of certification required. As I said, it's basically available as consumer products are. So to make my same point again, if it's being used by consumers and there are no additional accidents involving it, and no additional injuries involving 1.4pro, why is more regulation needed? Why can't consumers just be allowed to buy these new products as they have been for several years now?

[jr99svt]

Yet, it's under 1.4g in the states and has no legal definition of certification required. As I said, it's basically available as consumer products are. So to make my same point again, if it's being used by consumers and there are no additional accidents involving it, and no additional injuries involving 1.4pro, why is more regulation needed? Why can't consumers just be allowed to buy these new products as they have been for several years now?

AP may be 1.4, but consumer is UN0336 and AP is UN0431. They are not the same.
ATF definition US 27 555.11 subpart B
Articles pyrotechnic.
Pyrotechnic devices for professional use similar to consumer fireworks in chemical composition and construction but not intended for consumer use. Such articles meeting the weight limits for consumer fireworks but not labeled as such and classified by U.S. Department of Transportation regulations in 172.101

Consumer fireworks.
Any small firework device designed to produce visible effects by combustion and which must comply with the construction, chemical composition, and labeling regulations of the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, as set forth in title 16, Code of Federal Regulations, parts 1500 and 1507. Some small devices designed to produce audible effects are included, such as whistling devices, ground devices containing 50 mg or less of explosive materials, and aerial devices containing 130 mg or less of explosive materials. Consumer fireworks are classified as fireworks UN0336, and UN0337 by the U.S. Department of Transportation at 172.101, Link opens in a new window">49 CFR 172.101. This term does not include fused setpieces containing components which together exceed 50 mg of salute powder.

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

If there is no difference, then why is Dave offering certification for people to legally obain it? There is a reason......

[jr99svt]

I was legally allowed to purchase 1.3 without a 54 from 1998(when I turned 21) until may 24 2003( when the patriot act went into effect), with just a local permit, provided that i used it the day of pickup, and it was gone at the end of the day. I wasn't happy that it all changed with the patriot act, but if I wanted to keep playing, I had to get the 54.

[JustinH]

AP may be 1.4, but consumer is UN0336 and AP is UN0431. They are not the same.
ATF definition US 27 555.11 subpart B
Articles pyrotechnic.
Pyrotechnic devices for professional use similar to consumer fireworks in chemical composition and construction but not intended for consumer use. Such articles meeting the weight limits for consumer fireworks but not labeled as such and classified by U.S. Department of Transportation regulations in 172.101

Consumer fireworks.
Any small firework device designed to produce visible effects by combustion and which must comply with the construction, chemical composition, and labeling regulations of the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, as set forth in title 16, Code of Federal Regulations, parts 1500 and 1507. Some small devices designed to produce audible effects are included, such as whistling devices, ground devices containing 50 mg or less of explosive materials, and aerial devices containing 130 mg or less of explosive materials. Consumer fireworks are classified as fireworks UN0336, and UN0337 by the U.S. Department of Transportation at 172.101, Link opens in a new window">49 CFR 172.101. This term does not include fused setpieces containing components which together exceed 50 mg of salute powder.

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

If there is no difference, then why is Dave offering certification for people to legally obain it? There is a reason......


What law details the certification required to purchase? What law shows that Dave's certification or PGI certification is required? What law defines what a "professional" is in relation to AP products?
I know the products are different, they have a higher powder allowance and small salutes. But there currently is not a law that details the above questions. So as I said, if the product is available to just about anyone, and isn't causing more incidents, why do we need to add regulation?

[jr99svt]

What law details the certification required to purchase? What law shows that Dave's certification or PGI certification is required? What law defines what a "professional" is in relation to AP products?
I know the products are different, they have a higher powder allowance and small salutes. But there currently is not a law that details the above questions. So as I said, if the product is available to just about anyone, and isn't causing more incidents, why do we need to add regulation?

https://www.atf.gov/explosives/qa/are-%E2%80%9Carticles-pyrotechnic%E2%80%9D-subject-requirements-federal-explosives-regulations

but not intended for consumer use

[JustinH]

https://www.atf.gov/explosives/qa/are-%E2%80%9Carticles-pyrotechnic%E2%80%9D-subject-requirements-federal-explosives-regulations

but not intended for consumer use

That doesn't actually answer those questions.
Does that currently exist in writing, law, regulations, or not? And if it doesn't, why do more need to be made?

[RalphieJ]

I was legally allowed to purchase 1.3 without a 54 from 1998(when I turned 21) until may 24 2003( when the patriot act went into effect), with just a local permit, provided that i used it the day of pickup, and it was gone at the end of the day. I wasn't happy that it all changed with the patriot act, but if I wanted to keep playing, I had to get the 54.

Same here, from the mid-'80's till the Patriot Act I simply completed a limited permittee form, have it signed off by a county deputy sheriff, and on the 4th bring it to my local display company. Nothing major, 15 to 18 shells, 2-inch day salutes, 3-inch double-break house-made canister shells (color/report), and 3" and 4" Chinese ball shells (aka "Orientals"), to fire at my sportsman club. Back then, people appreciated the beauty of single hand-fired shells, (I would announce the name/effect of each shell that our friends would have fun critiquing LOL), the "finale" was simply one or two 4" peony or christhanmum, followed by a couple of 3" canister salutes. By the 2000's consumer product had greatly advanced, sky-puke became the rage, and my little 1.3 show became a thing of the past.

[jr99svt]

That doesn't actually answer those questions.
Does that currently exist in writing, law, regulations, or not? And if it doesn't, why do more need to be made?

Honestly I have no idea. Im done doing research on this. And I don't have to care weather there is or there isn't. I have a 54.

I have shown you the ATF definitions of consumer and AP, and shown you that the ATF says that AP is not for consumer use. Anything that is consumer is under the CSPC, and anything that is not consumer falls under the purview of the ATF. (Except in at least 1 example I can name, the CSPC disallowed the import of a certain Cracker that was 1.3, because it was getting into the consumer market).

If you want it bad enough step up and play with the big boys. Get Dave's package and get your 54, then you can buy all the AP you want, and better cheaper cakes that are straight 1.3.

[Birdman]

The point I was making is that the meaning of "professional use" has been debated. Many would like that to mean only those with proper credentials, such as display companies, could purchase them. Others believe "advanced users" such as hobbyists with proper training and equipment qualify to purchase it. The latter made much more sense when the only real difference between Pro and consumer was packaging and there was no real appeal to average firework consumer. These new products change that dynamic in a major way. Someone can argue they should all just be made consumer 1.4 and treated as such, I'd be fine with that, but that is not even being discussed by anyone with authority. You may as well yell at clouds about it at this point. What is being discussed is what constitutes "professional use".....which brings me back to what I stated at the beginning of this post. The only options on the table are further restricting sales or keeping the status quo. If the status quo is not respected and the powers that be feel this needs to be addressed, the only other option is to further restrict who can purchase them.

On a side note, it's just not retailers I'm concerned about. Even retailers that go above beyond to adhere to "the spirit of the regulations" could sell these products to someone who then wants to sell them on the "secondary market". Again, that wasn't a major concern when these products didn't have broad appeal to the average firework consumer. You could say, well that not the retailers fault, and it's not. However, if all of this does becomes an issue, law enforcement is going to look for solutions and press for tighter regulations. Frankly, and I'm speculating here, I think most everyone knows this is going to lead to tighter regulations and they are simply going to take as much advantage of this opportunity while they can while the others sit and wait for that to happen.

[Arclight]

For perspective, here is a company that sells an explosive rock-breaking tool. It's considered a 1.4 product that ATF allows to be sold "for professional use." In this case, you have to complete an on-line training before you can place orders for the cartridges.

https://sierrablaster.com/

[jr99svt]

The point I was making is that the meaning of "professional use" has been debated. Many would like that to mean only those with proper credentials, such as display companies, could purchase them. Others believe "advanced users" such as hobbyists with proper training and equipment qualify to purchase it. The latter made much more sense when the only real difference between Pro and consumer was packaging and there was no real appeal to average firework consumer. These new products change that dynamic in a major way. Someone can argue they should all just be made consumer 1.4 and treated as such, I'd be fine with that, but that is not even being discussed by anyone with authority. You may as well yell at clouds about it at this point. What is being discussed is what constitutes "professional use".....which brings me back to what I stated at the beginning of this post. The only options on the table are further restricting sales or keeping the status quo. If the status quo is not respected and the powers that be feel this needs to be addressed, the only other option is to further restrict who can purchase them.

On a side note, it's just not retailers I'm concerned about. Even retailers that go above beyond to adhere to "the spirit of the regulations" could sell these products to someone who then wants to sell them on the "secondary market". Again, that wasn't a major concern when these products didn't have broad appeal to the average firework consumer. You could say, well that not the retailers fault, and it's not. However, if all of this does becomes an issue, law enforcement is going to look for solutions and press for tighter regulations. Frankly, and I'm speculating here, I think most everyone knows this is going to lead to tighter regulations and they are simply going to take as much advantage of this opportunity while they can while the others sit and wait for that to happen.

I'm not a professional user of anything that isn't related to the electrical world. I am but a lowly electrician. On my 54 it says user of display fireworks. I am not nor have I ever been associated with the in commerce side of 1.3. I do 1 real scripted musical a year on average, over the last 10 years. The professional use argument doesn't really hold water from where I'm standing, because there are lots of people like me that buy and use 1.3 and some AP for personal use.

The ATF doesn't care if you are trained in the use of these products, only that you follow thier regulations and requirements. The training part comes into play, IMO, when you are trying to get a permit for your show(another argument for another time). Some basic training is available thru most 1.3 distributors, most of the time when they have open shoots or demo nights, VIa PGI classes and certification. Most people starting out in the 1.3 world have no clue that they are dealing with something that is inherently dangerous, until they have a near miss or have to learn the hard way, whether that is an injury to themselves or someone else. How many people have fired shells (either 1.3 or 1.4)out of PVC thinking it's an ok material to use as a mortar?

We don't hear about all of the bad things that are happening with AP. And the ATF has said for some time, someone needs to figure this out or we will. Well, it sounds like they have reached that point.

As for the Rock tool, how many people know that thing even exists? I was today years old before I have ever heard about anything like that.

[displayfireworks1]

Arclight I remember you showing that once before. Pretty cool. I suspect the ATF is happy these new products are out. One less thing for them to deal with these juiced up Baby B cakes. These are basically European Consumer Fireworks. If problems occur it will come from the Consumer Product Safety Commission. I suspect if they see these sitting on shelf for sale there will be problems. Then, they will come to the industry trade organizations and ask , what are you doing to self regulate ?
.
I am not 100% on this but I am hearing through the grapevine the NFA had chance to submit commentary on this prior to and did nothing. The APA with the same opportunity did submit prior to. It is as usual they see Consumer Fireworks and Display Companies. No one wants to address the advanced fireworks hobbyist in the terminology or regulations.
.
I know Matt from Dominator Fireworks started all this Articles of Pyrotechnic stuff years ago. Then China didn’t want to recognize that classification, hence the advanced “1.4 products” we have now. But I am not sure if China wanted to create it or did someone in United States want it. I am feeling China analyzed market need and created it. I recently talked to a player in the business and he told me this is the most recent exciting thing to happen to the business , these new products. I agree . I have been predicting it since 2018 with my Articles of Pyrotechnic training. Now I have a second training video for the new cakes etc. The industry is slow to catch up on technology for the average advanced user. Advanced users want these ported products. That is why I started adding them to the Displayfireworks1 products. Remember there are no fireworks pyrotechnic schools in United States. What I find interesting is some distributors accept the PGI certification for AP purchase. I talked to the PGI, their course does not teach Articles of Pyrotechnics and they have no intention of adding it. They want to stay strictly display product. It will be an interesting year to see how sales of these products go.

[topshelfpyro]

The PGI guys stated at 2023 PGI that AP is going to be added to the DOC course as well as floating some information that the definition of "a professional" is being considered by the APA/NFA to get ahead of the government agency's.

[displayfireworks1]

Interesting because the PGI Leadership told me the exact opposite on the AP product training. As far as the APA and AP products. A source told me in 2018 they have been asking the APA for years to further define who can purchase AP products and never received an answer. Here we are in 2024 and still no answer other than "Professional". Like Phil Grucci is going to walk into the store and ask for a couple of Air Burst cakes.

[Arclight]

Interesting because the PGI Leadership told me the exact opposite on the AP product training. As far as the APA and AP products. A source told me in 2018 they have been asking the APA for years to further define who can purchase AP products and never received an answer. Here we are in 2024 and still no answer other than "Professional". Like Phil Grucci is going to walk into the store and ask for a couple of Air Burst cakes.

Dave, it seems like there are also competing definitions of "professional" in this hobby. If you want to avoid DOT regulations and certain other hassles, it's best to be a "personal user." But for purposes of dealing with vendors, state permits, etc. they expect you to act like a "legit business."

[jr99svt]

Dave, it seems like there are also competing definitions of "professional" in this hobby. If you want to avoid DOT regulations and certain other hassles, it's best to be a "personal user." But for purposes of dealing with vendors, state permits, etc. they expect you to act like a "legit business."

As far as the distributors go, in PA they don't care, as long as you have the paperwork.

[Salutecake]

Hey Arclight, does California treat 1.3 fireworks like PA does, I mean as far as a distinction between hobbyist and commerce?

[Arclight]

Hey Arclight, does California treat 1.3 fireworks like PA does, I mean as far as a distinction between hobbyist and commerce?

California sucks for fireworks. You basically need to be set up as a business to do 1.3 legally, all fireworks (1.4 and 1.3) have to carry approval from the state fire marshall and they consider all 1.3 material to be "requires placarding" in transit, regardless of the amount or whether it is in commerce.

[topshelfpyro]

Interesting because the PGI Leadership told me the exact opposite on the AP product training. As far as the APA and AP products. A source told me in 2018 they have been asking the APA for years to further define who can purchase AP products and never received an answer. Here we are in 2024 and still no answer other than "Professional". Like Phil Grucci is going to walk into the store and ask for a couple of Air Burst cakes.

Yea there was a separate seminar at 2023 PGI that was completely about AP and the current state of the industry, the way it was, what happened, what's happening now, what's coming/being worked on for the future, etc. In that discussion was info about AP potentially being added/separate to the DOC course, terminology being addressed as to what the definition of a professional is moving forward as far as AP, and several other items of interest.

[displayfireworks1]

It is interesting to discuss all of this terminology and regulations etc. For the average advanced user all I can say its out there to purchase in various ways if you want it and use it responsibly. All it takes is a little training effort and some funds. It is not like all this Pro product is just sitting somewhere waiting for someone to make a decision , it is for sale now.

[topshelfpyro]

Amen. What will really be interesting is what happens in the next 1-3 years as regulations and things get decided.

Personally I'm going to enjoy the better availability of AP now and worry about what might happen when it happens. The last time i shot the 4th in 2022 almost 70% of my singles shots were from broken down cakes which is a pain.