how to make the fireball called Dragons breath?

[BERNT]

Hey guys, I have been searching on you tube on how to make dragons breath for some of my shoes that I have coming up this summer. The only ones that I can find are by some guy that makes them at the PGI convention in Wisconsin, but he doesn't tell how he does them. I was just wondering if anyone could give me any suggestions on how to do them?

[Catfish25p2000]

I would stick to cremoras. Making "dragons breath" is very dangerous, and should only be done by a seasoned pro.

[BERNT]

I have been playing around with cremoras and the thing about them is they are not consistent. I have noticed that they change with the weather and don’t give me the same results every time. Another thing that concerns me with cremoras is the cast, the show that I do has a limit of $4,000 and I through in extras, like the cremoras. This year we are thinking of doing 20 of them which would cast me $15 for the Cremor/ milk replacer and $5 for the gunpowder for each cremora. I was thinking that dragon breath would be cheaper and I also am looking for the noise that dragons breath gives when it goes off.

[Ralph]

Dragons breath isnt actually to bad Catfish its certainly not an indoor device though and must have adequate clearances

the affect is achieved by placing granulated black powder and a pinch of titanium (to ensure ignition) into a sealable bag that will not be dissolved by the fuel or atleast hold up for long enough for you to set off the device, to that carefully place an ematch inside the bag (the head of the match is very sensitive so don't push or force it in). Than jam all of this down a gun (steal is preferred for this though HDPE and even cardboard will be fine so long as you extinguish any remaining fire soon after the device fires) than poor in your fuel mix a good one is 70% petrol (or gasoline to you Americans) 20% diesel and 10% methanol this will give a rich fireball with the black smoke but without so much smoke that the red flame is obscured alternatively you can make a ghost mine by dissolving soluble colorant salts in methanol reds greens yellows organges and even blues may be achieved this way

[Davis050594]

For clarity, the steel gun is preferred because the hdpe gun will obviously be plugged with wood. The wood will wear away, crack, etc. If you want to start small get an all hdpe gun like an excal mortar and use that. It wont wear away.

[PyroMonkey]

One of the variables in making a Dragon's Breath is using the proper ratio of black powder (the ignition/lift charge) to the amount of liquid fuel, in a given diameter pipe. If you don't use enough BP, you'll be left with a puddle of burning fuel on the ground. As Ralph said, the BP and e-match must be contained in a plastic baggie to prevent the fuel from fouling it. Best idea, as with any pyro, is to find someone who is familiar with the procedure, and apprentice with them to learn what is involved in doing it safely. Be sure to test-fire the devices in a safe area before including it in your show, so that you know what to expect. If you're doing a public show, ask your local fire marshal if any restrictions apply to liquid fuel flame effects.

[blowtorch]

Make ghost mines there easy to set up and cheap to make. Plus you can make them in any color you want!

[Ti_Salute]

Hey guys, I have been searching on you tube on how to make dragons breath for some of my shoes that I have coming up this summer. The only ones that I can find are by some guy that makes them at the PGI convention in Wisconsin, but he doesn\'t tell how he does them. I was just wondering if anyone could give me any suggestions on how to do them?

Brent....if you know about this effect, have you taken Paul\'s class at PGI
if not you mite want to seek alot more info on this subject
it can be a very dangerous effect that your trying to pull off
and creamoras are much cheaper to build each shot of dragons breath come out of a 6\" steel gun that is 3 foot tall and watertite and has almost a good half pound of real black powder plus 3 liquid fuels....

[Ralph]

Brent....if you know about this effect, have you taken Paul\'s class at PGI
if not you mite want to seek alot more info on this subject
it can be a very dangerous effect that your trying to pull off
and creamoras are much cheaper to build each shot of dragons breath come out of a 6\" steel gun that is 3 foot tall and watertite and has almost a good half pound of real black powder plus 3 liquid fuels....
just like a cremora they can be any size if you are using food grade product especially if its name brand and in small containers it gets expensive fast (sodium benzoate makes a good replacement but thats not what were discussing) you can make a liquid fireball in any sized container you wish and as for cost black powder is dirt cheap if home made and if it isnt you will be using approximately the same which ever flame device you make and I dont know about your fuel prices but Petrol and Diesel are both at under $1.50(currently $1.30 and $1.38) per L here and methanol can be purchased by the liter for about $2 per L next time you see cermora for $1.50 per kg (2.2 lb) than you can say that they are cheaper

[Ti_Salute]

well Ralph i can get a 50# bag of top shelf hi fat cream for about 20 usd and diesel is 4 usd or higher and gasoline is 3.50 usd and methanol is about 80 usd for 5 gallons....not to count the 2 tpyes of bp needed

creamoras are much cheaper

[blowtorch]

well Ralph i can get a 50# bag of top shelf hi fat cream for about 20 usd and diesel is 4 usd or higher and gasoline is 3.50 usd and methanol is about 80 usd for 5 gallons....not to count the 2 tpyes of bp needed

creamoras are much cheaper

you can get methanol for $5 or less per gal.... go to a preformnce / racing shop.. I get mine for $4 a gal when I buy 5gal.

[BERNT]

Ti_Salute I don’t know where you can “get a 50# bag of top shelf hi fat cream for about 20 usd” but I know we are buying it straight from where it is made and it is still right around 12 usd just for the cream in the cremora then I still have the black powder. If I were to use Ralph’s recipe that he gives and use a gallon of gas, 1/5 gallon of diesel, and 1/10 of a gallon of methanol I am looking at spending $7 on the composition and like $1 on black powder that is a lot cheaper than a cremora.

[Ralph]

if you cant find methanol methylated spirits/ denatured alcohol (as I believe its known over in the states) is usually a mixture of 95% ethanol 5% methanol ethanol is a slightly heavier alcohol than methanol so you may wish to add slightly less diesel and slightly more methylated spirits

also Ti salute what ever do you mean by 2 kinds of BP needed ? quality lift is all that is needed (though the addition of a pinch of titanium is recommended to ensure even and complete ignition )

[Ti_Salute]

yes to make a true dragons breath like he is speaking of you use 2 types of BP 2fa and 4fa....ok...i understand you may not know of this effect he is speaking of....he wants to remake them for himself....i stated i have the formula right from Paul himself......ok......im not trying to get into a pssing match i am just stating true facts and posotive resulted formulas.

[Ralph]

BRENT are you after the exact same fireball produced by paul at PGI down to the exact same volume the flame takes up ?

OR are you after a generic fireball likely to have different specifications (height, whith ,gun size) that looks and sounds similar ?

I believe the reason for the 2fa and the 4fa is that the larger particles found in the 2fa will continue to burn for longer and give better ignition characteristics in all honesty using just 4fa and a pinch of Ti works just as well

[BERNT]

Ralph, I am after a similar affect as Paul’s, I realize I probably won’t be able to get it to be the exact same because of all the different variables in it.

Ti_ salute, I am sorry if you feel that I was trying to get into a pissing match with you, I just want to get the recipe for Paul’s dragons breath right and be safe while doing it. I own a 100-acre farm so I have plenty of room to test it out safely before my shows. What I’m wondering from you is what is his recipe for it, instead of me messing around with a bunch of different solutions and wasting money.

[Chris H]

Sorry to revive this one.

There sure is a lot of speculation going on for a device that's pretty well documented and taught. Have any of you considered e-mailing Paul or Jim Biersach? It'd be a fast way to clear stuff up. It's probably at home, but I know I have the handout somewhere. I've also seen Jim and Paul make them many times.

A few VERY important parts/corrections:

-There's no titanium involved
-Baggies won't do jack against gas. They're tightly wrapped in electrical tape with the e-match in there, and dipped in fiberglass epoxy once or twice to protect them. Bondo is the preferred brand I've been told. This is called an egg"
-Yes, there are 2 types of BP. 40g of 2FA and 40g of 4FA per "egg" (multiple eggs can be used for bigger effects)
-Cardboard will absorb fuel and burn like a torch. HDPE or fiberglass will probably melt/leak. Steel is really the best choice.
-There is water placed in the mortar with the fuel to prevent it from burning after it's fired

There are a million ways to do everything, but through testing the device developed by Paul works quite well.

As a personal preference, I prefer the liquid fueled fireballs. With how I've been taught, they're both similarly priced (if you're using reasonably priced BP). Cremora tends to clump up in the environment around here and drop burning clumps of cremora everywhere. I've been told mixing in some airfloat charcoal helps to keep it free flowing.

[Ralph]

Ti is mentioned in the skylighter article and Ive heard plenty of other people using it. It works for me too

[Chris H]

Ti is mentioned as an auxilliary or "parasitic" effect. IE it's mixed in with the cremora, not the lift.

http://www.skylighter.com/fireworks/how-to-make/cremora-fireballs.asp

[pyro70_30]

I make many of these type of effects a year, I call them liquid fuel mines. I use hdpe or fiberglass since that's what I have. I use a 90% E-85 and 10% diesel mix. I use 20 grams of 4fa in a 2.5" and 30 grm 4fa + 15grm 2fa in a 4". I put the powder in a sandwich bag with an ematch and tape the bag a few times with duct tape. Drop the charge in the tube and install a garbge bag. I use 4gal bags for 2.5" and 13 gal bags for 4". Fill the bag with the fuel and cut the bag off flush with the top of the tube, I then foil the top of the tube. The fuel has sat for 9 hours and not melted the bag. The benefits to this are, My tubes don't smell like fuel and if they fail or the show is cancelled you can lift the bag out and snip the corner and save the fuel by draining it back into a container.

[Chris H]

I found the handout. Nothing too new. 40g 4FA and 40g 2FA in an ematched baggy, covered with electrical tape and given a few dips in bondo. 2 gallons of fuel for a 6" steel mortar. 70 parts gasoline, 20 parts diesel, 10 parts methanol as the "dragon juice". The other handout I have is for ghost mines, and specifies all 2FA. I'd imagine it gives a slightly more gentle lift.

I do really like the idea of the plastic bag. It probably negates the need for the bondo.

[iamoger]

just a footnote to mind volume units - Ralph's fuel cost was in liters, your 3.50 usd a gallon would be ~ 0.92 $/Liter not such a big deal when fueling up, but a big deal when mixing stuff

[Groogrux]

found it in another thread, nevermind.