Timing My Canister Shells

[JohnJr88]

So this is my first year using the Ignite Firing System (or any automated firing system for that matter) and I am trying to time everything up to music. I need my consumer artillery shells to fire the lift charge at certain times (i.e. during AC/DC's Thunderstruck...... THUN-DER...... na na na na na na na na.....THUN-DER).

Do I cut the fuses on my canisters so my igniter closer to the lift charge? Do I set the pre-fire to a certain amount of time (i have it set to 3s now but I don't think that's enough for a canister shell out of the box)? Both?

I hope I'm making sense. I just want the crowd to hear the THUN-DER of the lift charge at the right time and I am having a tough time figuring this out.

Any help/thoughts are much appreciated.

[Birdman]

Use a pyro poke and poke into the bottom of the shell. Insert the MJG into the lift charge. Cover with tape. You will have instant ignition of the lift charge. I suggest keeping the fuse on so it's easier to insert the shell into the tube and so you can hand light the fuse if it doesn't fire. You need to make sure you tie off the wire to something so it doesn't have any opportunity to take your mod with it.

Here's Dave's method:


https://youtu.be/TZthkPvKrDY

I just poke the bottom and put the MJG in shroud and all.

[JohnJr88]

Brilliant idea! Thanks!!!

[Engineer Cat]

What cans are you shooting?

[Indypyrodude]

John, birdman is correct. Depending on the shell I will make slit between the base cap and the shell insert a shrouded MJG match and tape off. Yes be sure to secure the match to the rack. The shell can take the module with it. Happy shooting

[Scotty Rockets]

Consumer canister shells use visco for the time fuse which makes them very inaccurate, you’ll be off randomly on every shell by a half second or more. I would look to direct match individual tubes on 9 shot cakes instead, especially NOAB cakes, these cakes typically use real time fuse on the internal shells.

[JohnJr88]

I'm using Red Apple Geisha (6") and Chroma (5") canister shells. I have the quick plug Visco Shrouds from Cobra and was just going to pull back the Shroud and directly insert the initiator into the shells and cakes.

This should work?

I saw a video from Dave demonstrating these but he never showed putting the initiator directly into the shell/cake but the Visco Shrouds work just like the Standard Shrouds, correct?

Video from Dave's Channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgKv4Z4l6UE&t=488s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgKv4Z4l6UE&t=488s

[Birdman]

Consumer canister shells use visco for the time fuse which makes them very inaccurate, you’ll be off randomly on every shell by a half second or more. I would look to direct match individual tubes on 9 shot cakes instead, especially NOAB cakes, these cakes typically use real time fuse on the internal shells.


Johnjr88 is only attempting to time firing the lift charge, not the breaks.

[Birdman]

I'm using Red Apple Geisha (6") and Chroma (5") canister shells. I have the quick plug Visco Shrouds from Cobra and was just going to pull back the Shroud and directly insert the initiator into the shells and cakes.

This should work?

I saw a video from Dave demonstrating these but he never showed putting the initiator directly into the shell/cake but the Visco Shrouds work just like the Standard Shrouds, correct?

Video from Dave's Channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgKv4Z4l6UE&t=488s

No....a standard MJG needs some sort of connector to reliably ignite visco fuse and even then it's not the most reliable way. Poking is the most reliable way for shells or cakes and it give you instant firing for better timing.

[JohnJr88]

Hey Birdman,

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm going to pull back the Visco Shroud and insert the initiator directly into the cakes and canisters like Dave did in the video you sent me. I will be bypassing the fuse. I was just asking if the initiator from the visco shrouds would work just like the standard initiators.

I double checked with Cobra and they said it would work just fine with pulling back or even cutting the visco shroud and inserting directly into the cake/canister.

[Birdman]

Hey Birdman,

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm going to pull back the Visco Shroud and insert the initiator directly into the cakes and canisters like Dave did in the video you sent me. I will be bypassing the fuse. I was just asking if the initiator from the visco shrouds would work just like the standard initiators.

I double checked with Cobra and they said it would work just fine with pulling back or even cutting the visco shroud and inserting directly into the cake/canister.

OK....They will work if you're altering the shroud. Is there a reason you're purchasing this type of MJG?

[displayfireworks1]

unlisted video for forums


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebWlN8cbnI8

[Engineer Cat]

Hate to be a party pooper but I disagree with the advice to tell someone new to initiators to pull back the shroud.

I double checked with Cobra and they said it would work just fine with pulling back or even cutting the visco shroud and inserting directly into the cake/canister. Cobra's not the manufacture. MJG wouldn't tell you that if you asked them. The shroud is to protect the match heads from blunt force. With the shroud pulled back and inserted in a cake or can, blunt force, like accidently dropping the item could ignite it. Dropping a can down a mortar without slowly lowering it could ignite the match head. If you have the initiators with the visco shrouds they are easy enough to just cut them off just above the match head so the head is still protected. Personally I purchased a pack of the visco shroud once and I wouldn't bother buying them again, They were no as useful as I thought they would be since I poke 99% of my product. And when I needed to use them for fusing a chain, the fuse I use was to big to fit in the shroud.

There's really no need to pull back the shroud. If you watch slow motion video of initiators being ignite, the flame shoots out 2 inches past the shroud. The only time you need to worry about the shroud being an obstruction is in small bore cakes where if inserted all the way could push up against the inside of the tube and block the fire from igniting the lift. But there's other ways to tackle that issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=su-jXsxACew&t=27s

[Birdman]

Hate to be a party pooper but I disagree with the advice to tell someone new to initiators to pull back the shroud. Cobra's not the manufacture. MJG wouldn't tell you that if you asked them. The shroud is to protect the match heads from blunt force. With the shroud pulled back and inserted in a cake or can, blunt force, like accidently dropping the item could ignite it. Dropping a can down a mortar without slowly lowering it could ignite the match head. If you have the initiators with the visco shrouds they are easy enough to just cut them off just above the match head so the head is still protected. Personally I purchased a pack of the visco shroud once and I wouldn't bother buying them again, They were no as useful as I thought they would be since I poke 99% of my product. And when I needed to use them for fusing a chain, the fuse I use was to big to fit in the shroud.

There's really no need to pull back the shroud. If you watch slow motion video of initiators being ignite, the flame shoots out 2 inches past the shroud. The only time you need to worry about the shroud being an obstruction is in small bore cakes where if inserted all the way could push up against the inside of the tube and block the fire from igniting the lift. But there's other ways to tackle that issue.

I keep the shroud on whenever possible too for safety reasons. Like EG said, you really have no choice if you poke small bore cakes like most zipper cakes. I won't insert the MJG in these until I'm setting up the show. That said, Dave has a couple video out there demonstrating the kind of forces needed to get these to light without an electric charge and they don't light easily. Even so, I don't recommend removing the shroud. Better to be safe then sorry. Most of the issues I've had with product not firing is when I can't poke and instead relied on visco connectors. That's why I poke whenever possible and bypass the visco altogether. It's also why I questioned why this type of MJG was being purchased.

[cobrafiringsystems]

Small clarification on this item. When asked, we did make the suggestion the user could cut the visco shroud back to match the length of a standard shroud, but did not endorse or suggest pulling back the shroud and apologize for any confusion on this. Just for others to see the length difference of the standard vs. visco shroud. If the shroud was clear, the e-match head would line it with the visco version below.

6484

[displayfireworks1]

I It's also why I questioned why this type of MJG was being purchased.
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Why did he purchase the tube ones in the first place? I suspect he advanced further and faster into chorography that he anticipated. Of course we need to hear from him. I suspect he initially thought the tube Initators would be good enough until he got to those artillery shells and wanted that instant fire to correspond to that part of the song. You just can't do that with an artillery shell and fuse. I believe he said he was cutting the fuse very short. But you still can't get that instant fire. When he made that tube Initiator purchase he was at phase one of electric firing , he apparently advanced quickly, he had no idea of this technique with the brass awl. He is trying to avoid an additional Initiator purchase and wants to adapt the ones his has. I have seen this with enthusiast that purchase too many Talons (nichrome wire). Once they advance into Initiators , they don't know what to do with all the Talons they purchased and try to still use them somehow. Those tube Initiators are fine for enthusiast that want easy setup and are just happy to press buttons and fire something. Although I agree with what someone else mentioned I think the tube hole should be larger. An interesting research would be to take the standard red shroud cover and double the length , then just leave the cover on and stick it over the Visco and Magic Tape the entire thing into position.

[Birdman]

.
Why did he purchase the tube ones in the first place? I suspect he advanced further and faster into chorography that he anticipated. Of course we need to hear from him. I suspect he initially thought the tube Initators would be good enough until he got to those artillery shells and wanted that instant fire to correspond to that part of the song. You just can't do that with an artillery shell and fuse. I believe he said he was cutting the fuse very short. But you still can't get that instant fire. When he made that tube Initiator purchase he was at phase one of electric firing , he apparently advanced quickly, he had no idea of this technique with the brass awl. He is trying to avoid an additional Initiator purchase and wants to adapt the ones his has. I have seen this with enthusiast that purchase too many Talons (nichrome wire). Once they advance into Initiators , they don't know what to do with all the Talons they purchased and try to still use them somehow. Those tube Initiators are fine for enthusiast that want easy setup and are just happy to press buttons and fire something. Although I agree with what someone else mentioned I think the tube hole should be larger. An interesting research would be to take the standard red shroud cover and double the length , then just leave the cover on and stick it over the Visco and Magic Tape the entire thing into position.

I asked the question because I didn't want to make assumptions. It could be for these reasons, it could be that he's not familiar with poking cakes or any number of other reasons. I figured if/when we get that answer we may be able to offer some more advice to help him out.

[Salutecake]

Another thing to consider -- make sure when your at the point to insert the intiators check to make sure they are shunted. I have used the mjg with the quick plugs on them, and on occasion, found the little copper shunt missing, but in the bottom of the box.

[JohnJr88]

Thanks Dave for all the information and the video. You guys' assumptions were spot on. I purchased the Visco shroud initiators because of their versatility and wasn't crazy about the clip igniters. I had several not go off over New Years but after learning of the method Dave explained of directly inserting the match head into the cake/shell my wheels really started turning and I realized how much I could do and how creative I could get with my pyro-musical. It was definitely an "ah ha" moment.

From what I've experienced so far, the Visco Shroud does pull back down the wire (towards the quick plug) fairly easy. I'm going to do some test fires here in the next couple of weeks and let everyone know how it goes.

@Salutecake... yea I learned about shunting (thanks to Dave) here in the last week or so. I'm not trying to go crazy and level my house. Actually, as my show has grown (size, duration, and guests), I have put more of an importance on safety and care and I plan to continue with this. Thanks for the reminder though. I'll look more carefully at my initiators prior to use.

Thanks again for all the feedback everyone. Just this thread alone has helped me in my Pyro journey a lot.

And now that I know the make up of the match heads are the same I think I'll go the to standard shroud.

[topshelfpyro]

So this is my first year using the Ignite Firing System (or any automated firing system for that matter) and I am trying to time everything up to music. I need my consumer artillery shells to fire the lift charge at certain times (i.e. during AC/DC's Thunderstruck...... THUN-DER...... na na na na na na na na.....THUN-DER).

Do I cut the fuses on my canisters so my igniter closer to the lift charge? Do I set the pre-fire to a certain amount of time (i have it set to 3s now but I don't think that's enough for a canister shell out of the box)? Both?

I hope I'm making sense. I just want the crowd to hear the THUN-DER of the lift charge at the right time and I am having a tough time figuring this out.

Any help/thoughts are much appreciated.
You will have to ematch the lift charge to get the timing ability to do what your wanting. Timing the lift is far easier than timing the break but can be done with pretty good success. Prefire time on cans to try and time the burst is about 1.4-1.5 seconds when you directly match the lift.

https://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/showthread.php?9278-My-backyard-2022-show

That was what I did for 2022. The last segment (real finale) is all timed cans for the breaks. Not perfect but it's pretty close most of the time.

Good luck this year! It becomes an addiction :)

[displayfireworks1]

This is one of my New Years Eve videos from 2018. At 3:26 in the video you will see and hear where I started firing two canister artillery shells at the same time using that electric match directly into the lift on the shells technique. You can hear them both lift at the same time, then it is hit and miss to getting them to break at the same time. Consumer products are just not build to those exact specifications. The average backyard audience is not going to really notice it. I think it is still cool to get them to lift at the same time.
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https://youtu.be/sacB6na5uBM?t=207

[JohnJr88]

Nice Dave! Good stuff in that video. Sounds like timing the lifts shouldn't be too difficult with some care and attention.

@topshelfpyro..... I may try to venture into timing the breaks because that would be awesome, but for now I'm going to stick to timing the lift. I've got time to dive into more detail with my show, but I'm also building all new Mortar Racks as well as Roman Candle Racks (having a tough time finding good racks to model after) and Pedestals for my fountains. Not to mention I am doubling the size of my show this year and trying the direct e-match method for all cakes and canister shells.

Hopefully I didn't bite off more than I can chew but I'm really excited for the challenge.

[Salutecake]

I didn't go through all the posts but I am sure it is mentioned by someone or somewhere, when poking make sure you use a brass awl!!!

[Birdman]

Nice Dave! Good stuff in that video. Sounds like timing the lifts shouldn't be too difficult with some care and attention.

@topshelfpyro..... I may try to venture into timing the breaks because that would be awesome, but for now I'm going to stick to timing the lift. I've got time to dive into more detail with my show, but I'm also building all new Mortar Racks as well as Roman Candle Racks (having a tough time finding good racks to model after) and Pedestals for my fountains. Not to mention I am doubling the size of my show this year and trying the direct e-match method for all cakes and canister shells.

Hopefully I didn't bite off more than I can chew but I'm really excited for the challenge.

Timing the lift charge is easy. Timing the breaks perfectly is pretty much a roll of the dice. One thing I found is that it's better to fire 2 or 3 cans at one time if you can. This increases your chances pf getting one to break at the perfect time. Cans always seem impressive when your in the backyard standing right under them. However, I find when your watching them from a distance and firing them with other product, especially higher quality shells like those in a NOAB, they lose some of their impressiveness. Firing in multiples seems to give it a little extra "pop" and it tends to round out the breaks when fire closely together. Just something to consider......

[JohnJr88]

Thanks @Salutecake. I have the "Pyro Poke" that I got from Spirit of '76. I have the 4mm and 6mm (both brass) so those should do me fine I would think.

@Birdman I think the majority of the shells in my show are shot in multiples but I do appreciate the advice. The only single canisters I have shooting are timed to music at the lift and not at the break. I'm going to do some more testing in a couple of weeks with 8-10 shells and see how many lift when I need them to.

[BMoore]

When poking shells, my advice is to not poke through the side next to the fuse, but rather the bottom of the shell. The bottom is usually very thin and takes much less effort to poke through. Sometimes, i can even do it with my fingernail. A side benefit is that the lift charge will always blow the bottom out so it's not pulling the wire up with it. I've never understood why most people insist on going at it from the side.

As far as timing the breaks, it's just not going to happen in 1.4. Even in 1.3 it takes very premium shells to be made with such exacting standards to get perfectly consistent performance.

[PG2159]

When poking shells, my advice is to not poke through the side next to the fuse, but rather the bottom of the shell. The bottom is usually very thin and takes much less effort to poke through. Sometimes, i can even do it with my fingernail. A side benefit is that the lift charge will always blow the bottom out so it's not pulling the wire up with it. I've never understood why most people insist on going at it from the side.


IF your inserting through the bottom, do you tape the wire to the side? I would think the canninster being fired would have the potential to pull the wire with it?

[Birdman]

IF your inserting through the bottom, do you tape the wire to the side? I would think the canninster being fired would have the potential to pull the wire with it?

I agree with BMoore 100%! Poke the bottom and secure the MJG in there with a small piece of tape. I do not tape the wire to the side though many do because it's more secure if you use the wire to drop the shell in the tube. I keep the fuse on and use it (poke the fuse into the tube once the shell is inserted). If you secure the wire to the side of the shell in any way the wire will lift with the shell so you need to make sure your wire is tied off to something. This should be done in either case. I suspect minimal force is needed to tear the taped wire from the side of the shell but I also have to believe any force needed to do that has to effect the of the lift (height or trajectory) even if it is unnoticeable. It's basic physics.

[BMoore]

If you secure the wire to the side of the shell in any way the wire will lift with the shell so you need to make sure your wire is tied off to something. This should be done in either case. I suspect minimal force is needed to tear the taped wire from the side of the shell but I also have to believe any force needed to do that has to effect the of the lift (height or trajectory) even if it is unnoticeable. It's basic physics.

Exactly right and it's actually becoming even more relevant because manufacturers seem to be getting stingy on the lift in a lot of shells. If they break closer to the ground they seem bigger and louder! Any strain at all is going to have some negative effect. I still tie off my wires using this method, but that's really just to keep it clean and prevent as much wire movement as possible which could affect adjacent wires. The only tape on the shell is to cover the hole I inserted the match through.

[JohnJr88]

Did not think about going in from the bottom. That's good info.

So I was planning to tie off my wires to the side of the racks. I can see how going in from the bottom of the shell might be easier but from Dave's video, it doesn't look like his shells were effected??

Let's say I do go in from the bottom of the shell, I guess only enough tape to cover the hole and no tape going up the sides of the shell? What about the fuse? Keep the fuse in the shell to lower the shell into the tube?

[BMoore]

Did not think about going in from the bottom. That's good info.

So I was planning to tie off my wires to the side of the racks. I can see how going in from the bottom of the shell might be easier but from Dave's video, it doesn't look like his shells were effected??

Let's say I do go in from the bottom of the shell, I guess only enough tape to cover the hole and no tape going up the sides of the shell? What about the fuse? Keep the fuse in the shell to lower the shell into the tube?

Yes, tape to cover the hole is all you really need. As for the fuse, I just leave it to lower the shell into the tube and also as a back up so you can hand light if the match fails.

[displayfireworks1]

Some of you guys professing this bottom of the shell technique need to get that video out there so we can see this. For some reason I'm thinking it may not go that smooth and efficient. Lets get some video posted.

[BMoore]

Some of you guys professing this bottom of the shell technique need to get that video out there so we can see this. For some reason I'm thinking it may not go that smooth and efficient. Lets get some video posted.

If I could figure out how to post a video from my iPhone I would! I’ve done hundreds, probably thousands of shells this way with no issue.

[BMoore]

Ok, let’s give this a try. Sorry about the extremely poor quality. This is my first time trying to do a video!


https://youtu.be/ANeKKxTzMu0

[Scotty Rockets]

There is another way that is safer than having ematch embedded into the BP. Lengths of quickmatch inserted into the BP charge then ematch into the quickmatch. I do
this for my home built 1.75” lampares with a 12” quickmatch leader. This is how commercial shells are built.

[BMoore]

There is another way that is safer than having ematch embedded into the BP. Lengths of quickmatch inserted into the BP charge then ematch into the quickmatch. I do
this for my home built 1.75” lampares with a 12” quickmatch leader. This is how commercial shells are built.

I think the safety benefit would be negligible other than the minuscule chance that the course BP could cause more friction on the match head than the black match strands. You could say the same about poking cakes.

[JohnJr88]

Very interesting BMoore. Thanks for the video. I think I'm going to try both methods here in a few weeks/months and see which is easiest and works the best.

@ Scotty Rockets.... I don't have my ATF License (yet) so quickmatch isn't available to me.

[Engineer Cat]

I don't poke the bottom I just slice the bottom disk on the side and slip it in. I still call it "poking" but technically there's no poke. lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ulZ2uSg7II

[BMoore]

I don't poke the bottom I just slice the bottom disk on the side and slip it in. I still call it "poking" but technically there's no poke. lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ulZ2uSg7II

Your video is much better than mine, but yes it really is that easy. For safety reasons, I perform the operation with a brass awl instead of a blade but 9 times out of 10 you can use the tip to pry up the corner or cut a slit rather than an actual poke. You kind of figure that out as you go, but even the traditional hole is effortless. Often times the bottom disk is so thin or so poorly glued you can do it with your fingernail.

[JohnJr88]

This is great! Thanks guys!

[Engineer Cat]

Your video is much better than mine, but yes it really is that easy. For safety reasons, I perform the operation with a brass awl instead of a blade but 9 times out of 10 you can use the tip to pry up the corner or cut a slit rather than an actual poke. You kind of figure that out as you go, but even the traditional hole is effortless. Often times the bottom disk is so thin or so poorly glued you can do it with your fingernail.

Good tip! (no pun intended) :) I'll have to try that with the awl. Not having the ability to accidently cut yourself with the blade is an added safety factor. Finger nails work also but can start to get a bit painful after doing 20+ cans/shells.

I like your video better because you explain it step by step. I do it this way cause of that little bit of bp falling out of that one can will add up if you are poking 50+ shells like that. I don't spill any bp this way. If you're being to quick and the whole bottom disc just slips right off or is poorly installed like you mentioned, yea then spillage will happen.

Strain relief will be far more importaint if poking into the fuse entrance than poking the bottom. Should still restrict the wires movement but they are not flying out of the tube with the force to rip themselves out of the firing module. However they could cause other wires to move around enough to cause a problem with upcoming shots in the show.

[Birdman]

No issues with BP falling out if keep the bottom facing up when you poke it.

[BMoore]

No issues with BP falling out if keep the bottom facing up when you poke it.

Exactly and I think that's what Gene was saying. I was losing BP in my video because I was trying to show the camera. In real life I'd line the shells up upside down to do the "poking" and you wouldn't lose anything. That's another score for this method that I hadn't really thought about.

[Birdman]

Exactly and I think that's what Gene was saying. I was losing BP in my video because I was trying to show the camera. In real life I'd line the shells up upside down to do the "poking" and you wouldn't lose anything. That's another score for this method that I hadn't really thought about.

I figured that happened because of the camera angle. Wasn't sure if everyone would pick up on that since it was mentioned by EC.