How 1.3 permit works in a non legal state

[Amaturepyro]

So I’ve been debating for while now on getting that 1.3 permit. Tired of these mass amounts of money I’ve been spending on consumer stuff…it’s just crazy. What holds me back is, I want to know how the permit works in a non-consumer legal state. I mean at least in a consumer legal state, you can get away with some noise here and there and some 2-3” shells on occasion mixed in with all the 1.4 stuff…so I guess my question is if I get the permit and can legally buy 1.3 fireworks, how does one go about buying and shooting them off in a non legal state. I’m in CT btw if that helps. But if I’m gona do I’m going to do it now and try and have it for next year…please anything advice helps and I want to get the jump on this permit Probly ASAP. Thanks

[BMoore]

Most if not all states have a permitting process to shoot 1.3 and has nothing to do with the legalities of consumer fireworks. If you think buying 1.3 will save you money over 1.4 then you are in for a rude awakening. I probably quadrupled my budget when moving into 1.3.

[Engineer Cat]

So I’ve been debating for while now on getting that 1.3 permit. Tired of these mass amounts of money I’ve been spending on consumer stuff…it’s just crazy. What holds me back is, I want to know how the permit works in a non-consumer legal state. I mean at least in a consumer legal state, you can get away with some noise here and there and some 2-3” shells on occasion mixed in with all the 1.4 stuff…so I guess my question is if I get the permit and can legally buy 1.3 fireworks, how does one go about buying and shooting them off in a non legal state. I’m in CT btw if that helps. But if I’m gona do I’m going to do it now and try and have it for next year…please anything advice helps and I want to get the jump on this permit Probly ASAP. Thanks

I also live in a non legal state. From my understanding If I get my 54 I (would possibly) be able to get a permit to shoot 1.4 and 1.3 at a site they town approves of. I believe that then involves fire marshals signing off on the site and of course you would need insurance. You are not going to be shooting from say your backyard in the tri state area legally just because you have a 54. Also my understanding is when you can purchase 1.3 you have to keep records of its location, storage, when it's being shot etc. So you are not going to be able to throw a couple of 1.3 products into your backyard 1.4 show without having the proper permits.

I'm also working on the steps to a 54 so I have the same questions you do. Dave says just get the 54 and then worry about the other stuff later but I'm still hesitant because I'm still not sure how useful that would be to me and I rather not spend the money and time just to find out later I can't do much with it because of state and local red tape.

[Amaturepyro]

That’s funny…Dave in some of his videos says how much money you can save but switching to the 1.3 and that all this money your spending on consumer fireworks vs buying wholesale 1.3. ��*♂️ Also too for engineer cat, I agree. I’m in the same boat.

[Amaturepyro]

Ok yeah. So the license is pretty much so you can just buy and transport legally. That’s it. Shooting them is more of your state and local regs. Understood. Thanks.

[BMoore]

That’s funny…Dave in some of his videos says how much money you can save but switching to the 1.3 and that all this money your spending on consumer fireworks vs buying wholesale 1.3. ��*♂️ Also too for engineer cat, I agree. I’m in the same boat.

Let me elaborate on cost. If you are comparing the retail shelf prices of consumer fireworks to the case pricing of 1.3 then yes, you might save money on 1.3 when comparing similar items (Baby B Cakes). The bigger the firework the higher the price of course so once you move beyond Baby B the prices go up and you can no longer make a comparison. The thing is, by the time most people move to 1.3 they are already advanced hobbyist that are buying 1.4 in case quantities and getting some discounted pricing. If that's you, then saving money is going to be unlikely. Also, don't forget about upfront equipment costs. You mention shells. Unless you have your own ATF approved magazine, you'll be using a contingency storage agreement. That likely means you'll need enough racks to fire a full case of shells. Not trying to discourage you here, but I've not met any 54 holders talk about all the money they are saving. It might be possible, but generally not realistic. As I said, my budget when I made the leap into 1.3 about quadrupled and that's with about half my show still being 1.4.

[Arclight]

I also live in a non legal state. From my understanding If I get my 54 I (would possibly) be able to get a permit to shoot 1.4 and 1.3 at a site they town approves of. I believe that then involves fire marshals signing off on the site and of course you would need insurance. You are not going to be shooting from say your backyard in the tri state area legally just because you have a 54. Also my understanding is when you can purchase 1.3 you have to keep records of its location, storage, when it's being shot etc. So you are not going to be able to throw a couple of 1.3 products into your backyard 1.4 show without having the proper permits.

I'm also working on the steps to a 54 so I have the same questions you do. Dave says just get the 54 and then worry about the other stuff later but I'm still hesitant because I'm still not sure how useful that would be to me and I rather not spend the money and time just to find out later I can't do much with it because of state and local red tape.

ATF requires you to keep records of the acquisition and disposition. If you buy it and shoot the same day, you can probably get away with writing the disposition on the receipt as "Used completely at private 7/4/2022 for 4th of July shoot" and signing your name. If you took out a permit, you could staple that to it as well. You could also keep a log of use and sign/initial each entry. If you give any to another licensee, you need to get a copy of their license and make out a receipt. Keep a copy for your records. If you dispose if it in some other way, you need a log of that (destroyed, returned to vendor, whatever).

If you have a magazine, you need to keep a Daily Summary of Magazine Transactions (one page per unique product/lot code) with quantity in, quantity out, date of each entry and also the results of your yearly manual count. They want an accurate count of what is in the magazine and what if anything is out on your truck/in the field. They also want to not see product going missing for days because it was sitting in the trunk of your car or otherwise not safely stored. Your state/local AHJ might have specific requirements for post-use reports but it's not an ATF thing.

The regulations are kind of vague and it's possible that one ATF inspector will interpret them a bit differently than another. If you are making a good-faith effort to comply, your inspector will probably just tell you to correct any documentation they think is lacking. If you get caught lying, you may lose your license or be in legal trouble.

[Engineer Cat]

ATF requires you to keep records of the acquisition and disposition. If you buy it and shoot the same day, you can probably get away with writing the disposition on the receipt as "Used completely at private 7/4/2022 for 4th of July shoot" and signing your name. If you took out a permit, you could staple that to it as well.

Interesting. I thought that you always needed a permit if you were shooting 1.3. I get the record keeping and proper storage or disposal cause we don't want lunatics getting their hands on this stuff.




If you have a magazine, you need to keep a Daily Summary of Magazine Transactions (one page per unique product/lot code) with quantity in, quantity out, date of each entry and also the results of your yearly manual count. They want an accurate count of what is in the magazine and what if anything is out on your truck/in the field. They also want to not see product going missing for days because it was sitting in the trunk of your car or otherwise not safely stored. Your state/local AHJ might have specific requirements for post-use reports but it's not an ATF thing.


Yes this is pretty clear in the info provided by Dave. The information on record keeping is probably the most understandable. lol What still confuses me is the magazine. If it's outside like a shipping container it has to be 300 feet away from house. But if it's an inside magazine like a job box the distance is only 50ft? Is that correct?

Contingency may be difficult to satisfy the ATF cause the closest 1.3 distributer is 2 hours away from me in another state.

[Arclight]

Interesting. I thought that you always needed a permit if you were shooting 1.3. I get the record keeping and proper storage or disposal cause we don't want lunatics getting their hands on this stuff.

A Federal Explosives License or Permit is required from ATF if you buy, sell, store, or use regulated explosives. Transport depends - a common carrier like a hazmat trucking firm doesn't need one if they are taking product in commerce for a licensee. FedEx has delivered 1.4B material to be before, for instance.

The ATF typically isn't the agency that regulates where and when you use explosives. That is usually up to the state and local authorities. In some places, an ATF license is all you need for year-round use on your farm or whatever. In others, there are dozens of different categories of use that each require a special license and sometimes additional permits and reports for each individual job/show.



Yes this is pretty clear in the info provided by Dave. The information on record keeping is probably the most understandable. lol What still confuses me is the magazine. If it's outside like a shipping container it has to be 300 feet away from house. But if it's an inside magazine like a job box the distance is only 50ft? Is that correct?

Contingency may be difficult to satisfy the ATF cause the closest 1.3 distributor is 2 hours away from me in another state.

You need to consult the table of distances for this. It depends on the amount and type of material stored.
https://www.atf.gov/explosives/table-distances

You may be able to get a variance for less distance if your fire authority is OK with it. Dave would know more about this.

[Engineer Cat]

Thanks. Good info to know if I move forward with it.

[Amaturepyro]

Thank you gents for the all of the info. Man that’s why I love this forum….Definitely opened my mind some on the whole idea and I will be honest, that’s it’s not that it discourages me, but maybe just a few more things I’d like to do before I actually start this…I’m not necessarily looking to save money by switching, I just figured that buying wholesale 1.3 by the case is cheaper like it can be with when you purchase other wholesale fireworks…as I have seen some videos on here where Dave has got some case products, specifically from Kellners at some serious good prices…could just be because he’s Diaplay Fireworks 1. Lol…but yeah, I’m one who would want all my bases covered when the time came with no issues anywhere…I will say tho my state and local laws are super strict on this. Specially with town and state permitting for 1.3 shoots. A lot of paper work involved. Pictures of shoot sites and pictures of shells racks and sizes that are gona be used…I mean I knew you can’t just get the permit and buy the stuff and then bring it home and go set it off in the backyard…I mean what if my property size doesn’t allow it for whatever reason…then I’d finally have my license and not be able to utilize it…this is good info to kno. Again just trying to educate myself the best I can before I rock n roll with this…

[Blackdevil77]

Living in NY, it's basically impossible unless you shoot 1.3 professionally or have extremely deep pockets. There is no contingency storage in NY from my understanding, not sure how other states work.

[Salutecake]

Arclight is about right on. Interpretation of the ATF rules get a little sketchy at times as per the persons interpretation, including the ATF Inspectors. I know Dave use to fight for people in different States to obtain a type 54, but really I'm not sure if anyone can stop you in any state from getting a type 54 license as long as your incompliance. On the other hand that does not mean you will be able to just shoot off 1.3. As said, your State and Local government will have the final say. Some States and Local governments are friendly to the hobbyist, some States require nothing some a test and some testing and proof of 3 or 5 years experience before they will give you a license.
Price, well this year I actually bought early and got last years price, and if I remember correctly looking at this years retail prices of NOBs I believe my 1.3 3inch shells were less expensive than the retail NOBs, 1.3 is much nicer than 1.4

Good luck, with your decision.

[PuffyElvis]

Indoor storage doesn't have a table of distances, but you are limited to 50 lbs of explosive material. That's the big difference and that gets used up pretty quickly.

Also, licensees/permitees have to keep records of the acquisition, distribution and storage of explosive material. Disposition means transfer to another licensee or permitee of surplus stock. The ATF does not require you to record where, when, permit #, etc... of use of the explosive material. Therefore, if all explosive material acquired is used the same day - all licensees/permitees are required to record is the acquisition information - they even give you a nice sample form you can use.

https://www.atf.gov/file/58726/download

If anyone has had a different experience I'd be interested to know...