49 CFR issues.

[215less]

Afew days ago I was awoken to 2 federal DOT agents who asked me for my type 54 credentials. Then which they asked if I had my 49 CFR certification. I obviously had no clue what that was but now knowing. Do any of you know what’s involved or if it puts me in any legal issues moving forward. I was told even employee possessors are required to have this. The 2 field agents had a spread sheet of 500 plus people to speak to within the state about this matter so just giving warning what’s to come. Still waiting on a Dm from Dave. Waiting to hear back from the company I shoot for.

Any and all advice is welcomed. With all the training being required, it’s not looking to bright of a future for the hobbyist.

Kinda pissed they sprung this on me just days before The holiday. UghhhhhhRRRR!!!!

[215less]

Arclite, your a very knowledgeable person. Know anything about this???

[215less]

Edit: PGI certification only covers 2 parts of the 5 required by DOT for all type 54 holders and ALL employee possessors.

I apologize in advance. Not trying to scare anyone but this is pretty serious. I think this may warrant a call to PGI as well???

[jr99svt]

are you in Commerce?

[jr99svt]

If you are in Commerce, or get paid, and have to transport haz-mat materials as part of that job, then Yes, DOT regs apply.

[jr99svt]

all type 54 holders
Only if in Commerce.


it’s not looking to bright of a future for the hobbyist.
Hobbyists dont get paid.

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-49/subtitle-B/chapter-I/subchapter-C/part-171

Subpart A - Applicability, General Requirements, and North American Shipments

§ 171.1 Applicability of Hazardous Materials Regulations (HMR) to persons and functions.

Federal hazardous materials transportation law (49 U.S.C. 5101 et seq.) directs the Secretary of Transportation to establish regulations for the safe and secure transportation of hazardous materials in commerce, as the Secretary considers appropriate. The Secretary is authorized to apply these regulations to persons who transport hazardous materials in commerce. In addition, the law authorizes the Secretary to apply these regulations to persons who cause hazardous materials to be transported in commerce. The law also authorizes the Secretary to apply these regulations to persons who manufacture or maintain a packaging or a component of a packaging that is represented, marked, certified, or sold as qualified for use in the transportation of a hazardous material in commerce. Federal hazardous material transportation law also applies to anyone who indicates by marking or other means that a hazardous material being transported in commerce is present in a package or transport conveyance when it is not, and to anyone who tampers with a package or transport conveyance used to transport hazardous materials in commerce or a required marking, label, placard, or shipping description. Regulations prescribed in accordance with Federal hazardous materials transportation law shall govern safety aspects, including security, of the transportation of hazardous materials that the Secretary considers appropriate. In 49 CFR 1.53, the Secretary delegated authority to issue regulations for the safe and secure transportation of hazardous materials in commerce to the Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administrator. The Administrator issues the Hazardous Materials Regulations (HMR; 49 CFR parts 171 through 180) under that delegated authority. This section addresses the applicability of the HMR to packagings represented as qualified for use in the transportation of hazardous materials in commerce and to pre-transportation and transportation functions.

[215less]

Only if in Commerce.


Hobbyists dont get paid.

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-49/subtitle-B/chapter-I/subchapter-C/part-171

Subpart A - Applicability, General Requirements, and North American Shipments

§ 171.1 Applicability of Hazardous Materials Regulations (HMR) to persons and functions.

Federal hazardous materials transportation law (49 U.S.C. 5101 et seq.) directs the Secretary of Transportation to establish regulations for the safe and secure transportation of hazardous materials in commerce, as the Secretary considers appropriate. The Secretary is authorized to apply these regulations to persons who transport hazardous materials in commerce. In addition, the law authorizes the Secretary to apply these regulations to persons who cause hazardous materials to be transported in commerce. The law also authorizes the Secretary to apply these regulations to persons who manufacture or maintain a packaging or a component of a packaging that is represented, marked, certified, or sold as qualified for use in the transportation of a hazardous material in commerce. Federal hazardous material transportation law also applies to anyone who indicates by marking or other means that a hazardous material being transported in commerce is present in a package or transport conveyance when it is not, and to anyone who tampers with a package or transport conveyance used to transport hazardous materials in commerce or a required marking, label, placard, or shipping description. Regulations prescribed in accordance with Federal hazardous materials transportation law shall govern safety aspects, including security, of the transportation of hazardous materials that the Secretary considers appropriate. In 49 CFR 1.53, the Secretary delegated authority to issue regulations for the safe and secure transportation of hazardous materials in commerce to the Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administrator. The Administrator issues the Hazardous Materials Regulations (HMR; 49 CFR parts 171 through 180) under that delegated authority. This section addresses the applicability of the HMR to packagings represented as qualified for use in the transportation of hazardous materials in commerce and to pre-transportation and transportation functions.

That’s what I told them and they said all employee possessors need this certification? I’m still confused lol. But thanks for shedding light on this.

[215less]

If you are in Commerce, or get paid, and have to transport haz-mat materials as part of that job, then Yes, DOT regs apply.

There was a new part that they were most concerned with and said it was the company I shoot for but yet make it my issue.

5. In-depth security training. Each hazmat employee of a person required to have a security plan in accordance with subpart I of this part who handles hazardous materials covered by the plan, performs a regulated function related to the hazardous materials covered by the plan, or is responsible for implementing the plan must be trained concerning the security plan and its implementation. Security training must include company security objectives, organizational security structure, specific security procedures, specific security duties and responsibilities for each employee, and specific actions to be taken by each employee in the event of a security breach.

[jr99svt]

That’s what I told them and they said all employee possessors need this certification?


There was a new part that they were most concerned with and said it was the company I shoot for but yet make it my issue.

5. In-depth security training. Each hazmat employee of a person required to have a security plan in accordance with subpart I of this part who handles hazardous materials covered by the plan, performs a regulated function related to the hazardous materials covered by the plan, or is responsible for implementing the plan must be trained concerning the security plan and its implementation. Security training must include company security objectives, organizational security structure, specific security procedures, specific security duties and responsibilities for each employee, and specific actions to be taken by each employee in the event of a security breach.

employee means commerce is taking place. Commerce means DOT regs apply.

[Mattp]

This is definitely confusing,, because as a 54 holder we also have an employee possessor which is myself for me,, but it does sound to me like they’re looking into the company you work for,, and not your personal type 54 ,, could have something to do with the firework truck fire in jersey recently ,, maybe they’re checking up on companies ,,, do you drive hazmat???.. I think they could be wrong on the “even employee possessors need this”… seems like something a CDL driver with hazmat endorsement would need

[ssmith512]

That’s what I told them and they said all employee possessors need this certification? I’m still confused lol. But thanks for shedding light on this.

They are incorrect.

That is like saying all employees of a trucking company need a CDL license. The gal answering the phones doesnt need a CDL license, the gal in the payroll dept doesnt need a CDL license, etc. Heck the passenger IN the truck doesnt need a CDL license.

49CFR is only needed IF you are in commerce and if YOU are driving the vehicle carrying the hazardous material.

[215less]

This is definitely confusing,, because as a 54 holder we also have an employee possessor which is myself for me,, but it does sound to me like they’re looking into the company you work for,, and not your personal type 54 ,, could have something to do with the firework truck fire in jersey recently ,, maybe they’re checking up on companies ,,, do you drive hazmat???.. I think they could be wrong on the “even employee possessors need this”… seems like something a CDL driver with hazmat endorsement would need

I couldn’t agree anymore with you. My whole thing thinking is. Once the product is at the shoot site. One would think it’s out of the DOT jurisdiction right? They kept saying if you handle the product regardless wether your in commerce or not. You need this training they said and no I don’t drive nor have my hazmat. Your hazmat license is different from this certification I’m told.

[215less]

They are incorrect.

That is like saying all employees of a trucking company need a CDL license. The gal answering the phones doesnt need a CDL license, the gal in the payroll dept doesnt need a CDL license, etc. Heck the passenger IN the truck doesnt need a CDL license.

49CFR is only needed IF you are in commerce and if YOU are driving the vehicle carrying the hazardous material.


I agree with you but these guys said quote “do you put the shells in the tubes? Then you need this certification regardless wether you drive or not”

The other one was quote “if even all you transport for your hobbyist non commerce’s shoot is ematch, then you need a hazmat and placards for transportation as this material falls under the 1.1 to 1.3 regulations under section 172.400”

Not even joking guys. These guys were ……… you can imagine how I feel especially at 9am no notice and no coffee. And like I said in the first post, they had a list and I asked about it. I’m still baffled that I’m the first guy reporting this on here. They said they are meeting with over 500 people alone in Pennsylvania with type 54’s along with employee possessors and actually said they were more concerned with the employee possessors alone. Idk what to think??? I’m sure Dave’s busy for obviously reasons but I’d like his take on the matter and how to proceed. I’m talking with the company I shoot with today to see if they can shed some light on the matter.

[jr99svt]

because as a 54 holder we also have an employee possessor which is myself for me,
Negative
I have a type 54. have 3 documents from ATFE, the type 54, a Responsible person notice of clearance, and notice of clearance for transporting, possessing, shipping, receiving Ex material. At the bottom of the Notice of clearance for transporting, possessing, shipping, receiving Ex material, I have 1 responsible person(me) and 0 Employee possessors.

If you have or are an employee possessor, they can extrapolate that you are in commerce. An Employee is someone who is compensated for work performed.

§ 171.1 Applicability of Hazardous Materials Regulations (HMR) to persons and functions, Says over and over again that it applys to In commerce.

Federal Motor carrier safety administration says the same thing. https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/hazardous-materials/how-comply-federal-hazardous-materials-regulations#applicability

If you shoot for a display company, The company you shoot for, and therefore you, are in commerce.

[Arclight]

It seems like there are a couple of things going on here. First, placarded transport is an "all or nothing" thing. You need DOT numbers, CDL with hazmat endorsement, DOT inspection of your vehicles, a drug testing program, commercial insurance, state DOT numbers in some places, etc. if you are doing something that requires placarded transport. The two ways that I am aware of to avoid this are:

1. Only transport 1.4 or 1.5 material less than 1,001 lbs and with a gross vehicle weight under 10,000lbs
https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/sites/phmsa.dot.gov/files/docs/Placarding_Requirements.pdf

2. Not be "in commerce" as others have stated. Here is a Q&A from DOT about this:
https://www7.phmsa.dot.gov/regulations/title49/interp/09-0220

If DOT is trying to argue that you must always be "in commerce" because you have an employee-possessor on your license, then I would probably tell them that:
A. The activities are not for hire nor furthering any type of commercial enterprise (ie a private fireworks show)
B. You don't use any 1.1 or 1.3 material in commerce. My understanding is that you could legally engage in commercial activity, interstate commerce, etc. with 1.4 material that is under 1,001lbs thus not requiring placarded transport.
C. You are making a best effort to comply with ATF regulations and were told that every person who handles material much get EP clearance within 30 days. I believe this isn't actually true, but it is commonly stated by people in the field and would certainly explain why a hobby or non-commercial user would have EPs listed.

As an aside, I always make up a list of what I'm carrying, print the SDS safety sheet, and carry the DOT required hazmat equipment (warning triangles, fire extinguishers, spare tail light bulbs and fuses) when transporting any Division 1 material. I also made up a simple security plan and have a copy of that. It's not 100% clear to me whether you need to comply with this for non-placarded transport but I do it anyway. This could come up if you break down somewhere.

https://csa.fmcsa.dot.gov/safetyplanner/MyFiles/SubSections.aspx?ch=22&sec=64&sub=133

[Arclight]

If their main issue with you is about not having a security plan/training, I would just write a simple security plan up and keep a copy around. Mine includes things like:
-Keeping control of all keys to magazines, dayboxes, etc.
-Following guidance that is received from ATF, local law enforcement and professional groups such as PGI
-Notifying police immediately of suspicious activity such as being followed
-Notifying ATF immediately if explosives are lost or stolen

Here is the PHMSA doc:
https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/sites/phmsa.dot.gov/files/docs/Enhanced%20Security%20Brochure.pdf

For "Security Awareness Training" OSHA and other places have materials you can read/watch for free.
https://dothazmat.vividlms.com/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpH2l97tMHE

[Mattp]

You are correct sir,, I just looked at Mine again,, lol,

[Mattp]

If this whole thing is more an employee possessor working for an “in commerce” company ,, which I also am,, and is a new reg,, then We may have to get the cfr49 training and cert,,, which personally I’m ok with doing,,,, but if this is for my personal non commerce type 54 then I don’t know what to do.. and will probably let it expire and be glad I had a good run,,, but it still seems very wrong to me,, like those guys are wrong,,,, what did they tell you ,, that you have to do now ???

[BMoore]

There is something else going on here. This would impact every employee possessor out there and would be sending shockwaves through the industry. I have an employee possessor on my license and also am an employee possessor and this is the first I’ve heard about this. Secondly, initial communication would be in the form of a letter. The DOT isn’t going to show up at every employee possessor’s residence to personally discuss this. IMHO the company you work for is being investigated for something and the individuals sent to you are trying to assert their authority on something they aren’t really familiar with.

[Arclight]

I don't think there is any national certification for "Hazmat security." My understanding is that it's up to the company to come up with their own security plan and communicate it to employees. If you're a 1-man show, is there any reason you can't just type it up yourself and sign something saying you read it?

That brochure from DOT on Hazmat security made it sound like even non-placarded loads could be affected (not sure if they have the authority to do this.) If this is the reasoning they are using (Anyone transporting division 1 materials needs to have security training) then it probably makes sense to type up simple plan and sign something saying you watched a DOT video and read the plan. If they are checking a "Homeland Security" box then this might head off further problems.

If they are trying to argue that your personal fireworks hobby means you need to be a fully-certified DOT carrier, then that is a much different problem.

[215less]

As mentioned above. This was in direct correlation with an employee possessor part and not my personal 54 license though I do like what arclight mentioned and have something in place even if it’s just a short typed up plan to keep with your records. There’s too much speculating going on and can’t stress enough about them not caring wether it’s driving or NOT or wether it’s in commerce or NOT. They again said this was for “ALL EMPLOYEE POSSESSORS!!!!!!!!”

I am in communication with the company I shoot for and I’m in a waiting pattern. Since I first brought this to light, 4 other people have come forward to this and the general consensus is this may have something to do with illegal sales that happened in a neighboring state or a recent truck fire with product from the same neighboring state.

Arclight, that from the advice. I’m going to wait for further instruction from the company moving forward. If anyone has any other questions and not speculate. You can Dm me and can continue this privately.

Thanks for all the input!!