Record keeping 1.3 products and contingency

[Engineer Cat]

I'm not a type 54 holder at this time but I'm assuming that once you get one you are no longer shooting (your own shows) without getting a permit and insurance. From what I've read and how I understand it is any 1.3 product you purchase is tracked and needs to be shown where it was used and such. So if you decide to shoot a quick show for fun you can't add 1.3 to the show because there would be no paper trail accounting for where the product was used. Is this correct?

If I apply for the 54 to be able to shoot shows for pro companies that are looking for shooters do I still need to provide contingency information on the application if I have no plans to purchase or store 1.3 products.

[displayfireworks1]

I usually direct these pre ATF license questions to buy my ATF/DVD package. Once you obtain your ATF license, that includes the educational interview with the Inspector etc. In addition making a few 1.3 purchases. A lot of this becomes clearer. The question is why are you not obtaining your ATF license? Once you obtain the license then worry about tracking , inventory , purchase receipts etc. You are also confusing working for a professional company and the ATF license .

[Engineer Cat]

I did purchase your package a few years ago and after watching and reading it a few times it just seemed like a lot of work to get the ATF license when I'm not really sure how useful it would be to me. The more I read about other members here getting their 54 the more I'm thinking of returning to the idea of applying for one.

I guess my real question is how useful is it for someone who's just a backyard pyro?

I'm going to go dig through my office and try to find the ATF/DVD package so I can go through it again.

Thanks Dave

[Mattp]

If you get a job working for a fireworks company you do not need a license,, you work under their license as a “employee possessor “,, I do agree with Dave,, get it, then figure out how useful it is for a backyard guy.. LOL .you could join a club, and use it to purchase and shoot at club events . his dvd did help answer a lot of questions when I first got mine

[Engineer Cat]

If you get a job working for a fireworks company you do not need a license,, you work under their license as a “employee possessor “,, I do agree with Dave,, get it, then figure out how useful it is for a backyard guy.. LOL .you could join a club, and use it to purchase and shoot at club events . his dvd did help answer a lot of questions when I first got mine

Ah I thought you need a 54 before you worked with a company. Good to know.

Before covid get everything all screwed up I was looking into clubs but the ones suggested to me were all pretty far away.

I can't find my ATF/DVD so it looks like I'll be ordering another one. :p

[BMoore]

Contrary to logic you may be better off not having a 54 to work for a display company or at least not advertise it at first. As a 54 holder you are technically your own display operator and there is often a perception that you are the direct competition of the display company your are trying to get on with. There might also be a perception that you know too much and will be difficult to train to follow their own procedures.

Whether or not to get a 54 is really a personal choice depending on your own situation, goals, location, etc. etc. My advice is to have a conversation with the distributor in your area that you would be working with. They are going to be a wealth of knowledge for your general area.

[Salutecake]

BMoore made some good points. It seems there are plenty of companies willing to take on any help, especially in and around the fourth.

I would like to add, look around for a PGI course, I don't know how or if NJ handles it but most if not all that are offered in PA give you a chance to hand fire at least 2 3" shells during the course. The course might help you determine if this is the way you should go. The course does have a lot of well, specific, info that might give you a good overall picture of what you need to do and how it might fit in with you set up.
At least you will have a 2 shot hand fired shell. Many companies still do a lot of hand firing and also have there own courses you must take before you can go out in the field.

As far as the paper work goes, if you use contingency storage like from a supplier, for your records you are going to get from the supplier, a list of the product you took from them that day, along with a description list with about a dozen codes, Where it was made - the date and shift code so on. That is the thing the ATF is concerned about when they come to check you out. The second part of that is they will most likely ask where the product is now. I usually just write on the paperwork acquired July 2 all shot off July 2, and if you had any product that didn't get shot off, they have to be returned to a magazine, then you have to get the paper work that you returned it. Last part about that is how long you have to return it, Some ATF inspectors say right away, some say you have 24 hours that part i really don't know.

Finally if you like what you see order Daves CD's again, they are very helpful.

So far for my 2 cents.

[BMoore]

and if you had any product that didn't get shot off, they have to be returned to a magazine, then you have to get the paper work that you returned it. Last part about that is how long you have to return it, Some ATF inspectors say right away, some say you have 24 hours that part i really don't know.

That confused me at first as well. I kept hearing 24 hour rule or same calendar day rule. The actual answer is there is not a ticking clock at all. Whether you use contingency storage or your own magazine 1.3 product is supposed to be properly stored any time it isn't in transport, being processed, or being shot. There is no special timeline for contingency storage plans. If your show is cancelled and you are returning to storage you load it up and go. No one is going to pop out of the bushes at midnight because you didn't get it back in the magazine by 11:59pm. What you can't do is throw it in the back of your car and return it after you play a round of golf the next morning. 1.3 product is supposed to be treated like a child......under close supervision at all times either by yourself or your designated babysitter (employee possessor). If neither are available it better be in the daycare (storage magazine). Unsupervised 1.3 is where you will get in trouble.

[Mattp]

Haha,, I like that analogy!!!
One other thing I would recommend if you are really thinking. About getting it,,, download and read the entire ATF orange book,, that will also help clear up confusion

[Engineer Cat]

Interesting. Very good info guys Thank You.

Very good analogy! :)

[Salutecake]

I agree with you both BMoore and Mattp. The Orange is great but you also have to look at the ATF website for recent updates, clarifications and interpretations of the Orange book.

Yep BMoore I go by if it's not in transport it's in the process of being used and if it's overnight it should be kept under surveillance.

I should have explained myself, with that statement, I just meant your going to hear a lot of rules and regulations, even some rules and regulations from ATF inspectors, that are not correct.

[displayfireworks1]

Usually once someone obtains an ATF license, they have very questions. I never hear someone say . no that I have an ATF license what do I do. I guess it is a license to learn. Don't become overwhelmed with what happens once you are licensed before you are licensed. While you do not need licensed to work for a professional display company, you do need to pass a criminal background check. I know the company I worked for I could hire most anyone to help but the ATF Employee Possessor form had to be completed on the new person when I turned the show paperwork in. Further they would not pay the new person until they received the completed form.

[215less]

Haha,, I like that analogy!!!
One other thing I would recommend if you are really thinking. About getting it,,, download and read the entire ATF orange book,, that will also help clear up confusion

I agree. The orange book may have the answers your looking for.

[Arclight]

I agree. The orange book may have the answers your looking for.

1. Orange book
2. Talk to other licensees if you can.
3. Go to club meetings, trade shows, forums like this one.
4. Listen to the ATF webiner they have 1-2 times per year
5. If you have some weird situation that's not in the Orange Book and none of your friends have heard about, e-mail the ATF industry questions e-mail.

#5 is best for obscure questions, like "Can I install a magazine on a house boat?" or "Is that weird item 1.1 or 1.4 for storage purposes?"