What didn't work this year

[barehm]

Overall, my show this year was a success using a lot of new techniques - the biggest being a change to a 72M/18M Cobra setup. Of course there's always something left to criticize about myself even if the spectators didn't notice any issues! The Cobra performed flawlessly with the exception of one serial breakout board.

what I need to debug:
1) Visco clips tied into MJG initiators were a big fail. I had almost 200 cannister shells in various racks of 3, 10, and 25. at least 50 shells didn't fire. Green fuse, Pink Fuse - neither lit that well. Fast fuse went up every time. I need a different plan in the future. Maybe talons or attaching fast fuse to the end of every visco fuse? I tried to cut an angle, but I could never seem to get a steep angle with my anvil cutter.
http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=5829&stc=1

2) Way more cakes caught on fire (after they shot) than I expected during the ~25 minute show. Certainly more than I had with long fusing. Was this due to me poking the cakes in some way? Just an unlucky year? I just didn't want to burn up my OSB platforms, but it causes undue anxiety with the audience to see fire!

3) Spacing of where I'm shooting from - I was close to 30 feet across and I don't think it was enough separation to really enjoy multiple firing positions. I need to figure out the minimum distance to get reasonable separation and look into slats or longer initiator wire. I haven't checked if the resistance of a slat cable vs initiator wire would be preferred.

4) I had 10 recently released serial breakout boards from Cobra and 1 of them (or the cable that came with it) failed in pre-show testing. I had an extra cue, so no real harm except I had to reload my script and didn't get to test it. I will test that hardware for continuity ahead of 'day of' in the future. Once I figure out which one it was (I dumbly mixed them up), I'll contact Cobra to see if they want the circuit board back for any reason to test.

5) Some of my first lift charges were clearly lower than subsequent mortars. I'm sure this is because I poked them ahead of time and lift charge stuck to Dave's magic tape. I pushed some back in when I was removing the tape, but need to think of a different solution (because chasing perfection is fun!). Poking everything day of sounds hard. Maybe I'll need to draft some helpers :)

Time to start working on 2022.....

[Arles]

Nice debrief. What kind of visco clips did you use?

[barehm]

I used these - https://electricmatch.com/pyrotechnics/see/15/5/visco-clip

I don't want to ignore the fact that it's possible I didn't get the visco fuse into the clip correctly. In other words, it's possible I pushed the fuse too far into the clip. The web page is pretty clear to stop right before the hole in the bottom and I could have been sloppy in doing that. If anyone has suggestions/feedback, please let me know.

[Arles]

I was planning to use those for my racks and possibly NOABs and have been worried about them. They came out with a newer product that is just a tube that I?ve been thinking about switching to. I should probably take the hint. Thanks for the feedback.

[R. Derrick]

Thanks for your post! A lot of good info there for us novice users (I am one). I poked all my cakes the day of and it was much more time-consuming than I had considered. I had a few cakes that didn't go off but the initiator did fire. I'm guessing wrong area poked or not enough fire to light the slurry, either way, glad you had a good show overall and good luck on your 2022 show! I'm ready to begin planning as well! lol

[Engineer Cat]

I used these - https://electricmatch.com/pyrotechnics/see/15/5/visco-clip

I don't want to ignore the fact that it's possible I didn't get the visco fuse into the clip correctly. In other words, it's possible I pushed the fuse too far into the clip. The web page is pretty clear to stop right before the hole in the bottom and I could have been sloppy in doing that. If anyone has suggestions/feedback, please let me know.

I got those last year. Most of the items I had connected to them did not go off. I got a bunch left over that I wont use.


I was planning to use those for my racks and possibly NOABs and have been worried about them. They came out with a newer product that is just a tube that I?ve been thinking about switching to. I should probably take the hint. Thanks for the feedback.

Arles if you want to PM me your address I'll send all the ones I did not use so you can test them out and see if they are worth it to you. I also purchased the new visco initiators last year when I picked up these clips. Those visco initiators are very good. Not one failed to ignite any fuse. I had a few cakes that did not go off with regular initiators but I chalk that up to something I may have done. I'll be putting posting about my show issues and recovery later. lol

The only issue I've seen with the visco initiators is the tube is a little small for white fast fuse. It's a real snug fit. In some cases I had to attach a small piece of another fuse to attach it to the fast fuse.

[barehm]

Engineer Cat - can you send me a link to what you purchased that did work well?

[Engineer Cat]

Barehm I'm curious as to why did you decide to use the clips instead of just poking them into the lift of the shells? I had to use fuse for my shells because I just didn't have enough initiators to poke them all. If I had enough I would have just poked them but I swapped out the slow fuse for fast fuse on the shells and then had 1 initiator handle a number of tubes per rack. Poking them would of made the process much quicker for me then replacing the fuse.

[gecko2015]

I typically have a 80-90% (guesstimating) success rate when taping MJG initiators to the end of green visco mortar fuses. However, so far I've had a 100% success rate taping about a 2-3 inch cut quick fuse to the end of the Visco (and then taping my MJG to that) as you suggested you might do. If I'm just doing scripted single shots, I'll poke the mortar shell and put in quick fuse and cut to equal the length of the visco and tape the MJGs to that. But most others on here prefer to just stick the MJG directly into the mortar. I just haven't messed with that yet.

It's funny you mention you had more cake catch on fire this year than normal as I had the same exact experience. Not only did I have more cakes catch fire, but they also caught fire much earlier than they usually do. I had about 7 out of my 47 cakes catch fire, 2 of which began flaming just moments after they finished shooting; and within a very short time the flames were a good 3-4ft in the air. I agree completely, while it's usually not a big deal so long as it's not spreading to unlit product, it usually does distress the audience because they just see a fire and think something might be going wrong.

I don't know if poking (or the way it's poked) increases the chance of it catching fire, but I don't think it does. Hence, why there's a warning on every cake that says to soak with water after use due to it being able to reignite itself. It sure would be nice to find out if there's a way to reduce the chance of cakes catching fire though.

[Engineer Cat]

Engineer Cat - can you send me a link to what you purchased that did work well?

https://electricmatch.com/pyrotechnics/see/37/5/firewire-visco-initiators

Before they came out with this, I would use the regular initiators they sell and cut a piece of plastic straw about an inch long. Slip it over the red shroud and then put my visco in that and tape it up. Works awesome to make sure that flame gets the fuse going. (Kind of like quick fuse in a paper tube).

[barehm]

Engineer Cat - poking 200 shells would have taken a long time and would have required a massive investment in new cobra modules. I had an 18M at the end of my dock shooting racks that were fused together with a lead fuse, so I needed to figure out how to light that initial fuse. I did poke 3 shells that I wanted to time exactly and they went fine. Maybe I just need to get out my checkbook....

Gecko - same here on the timing of the fire! It happened right after ignition whereas I'm used to it happening later if I don't get water on them fast enough. Weird year. Maybe the cakes had COVID.

[Engineer Cat]

Engineer Cat - poking 200 shells would have taken a long time and would have required a massive investment in new cobra modules. I had an 18M at the end of my dock shooting racks that were fused together with a lead fuse, so I needed to figure out how to light that initial fuse. I did poke 3 shells that I wanted to time exactly and they went fine. Maybe I just need to get out my checkbook....

Gecko - same here on the timing of the fire! It happened right after ignition whereas I'm used to it happening later if I don't get water on them fast enough. Weird year. Maybe the cakes had COVID.


Ahh makes complete sense.

[barehm]

engineer cat - I wish they sold just the plastic shroud if it's the same chemical composition/size as regular MJG initiators. I might need to find some cheap plastic tubing to build my own to get through my box of existing initiators. Then again, I could just use those on 100 cakes and buy some more :). Always an excuse to get more fireworks!

[Arles]

I got those last year. Most of the items I had connected to them did not go off. I got a bunch left over that I wont use.



Arles if you want to PM me your address I'll send all the ones I did not use so you can test them out and see if they are worth it to you. I also purchased the new visco initiators last year when I picked up these clips. Those visco initiators are very good. Not one failed to ignite any fuse. I had a few cakes that did not go off with regular initiators but I chalk that up to something I may have done. I'll be putting posting about my show issues and recovery later. lol

The only issue I've seen with the visco initiators is the tube is a little small for white fast fuse. It's a real snug fit. In some cases I had to attach a small piece of another fuse to attach it to the fast fuse.

Thanks for the offer, I have a box of them. I've tested three of them and they've all worked, but I may try something else. Thanks

[Birdman]

2) Way more cakes caught on fire (after they shot) than I expected during the ~25 minute show. Certainly more than I had with long fusing. Was this due to me poking the cakes in some way? Just an unlucky year? I just didn't want to burn up my OSB platforms, but it causes undue anxiety with the audience to see fire!

3) Spacing of where I'm shooting from - I was close to 30 feet across and I don't think it was enough separation to really enjoy multiple firing positions. I need to figure out the minimum distance to get reasonable separation and look into slats or longer initiator wire. I haven't checked if the resistance of a slat cable vs initiator wire would be preferred.


I had more cakes catch fire this year then usual. Not a big deal because I don't use boards. I also need to treat my shoot site as a single position and I have about 70 feet to work with. I thought I chose the right effects after I noticed this last year but still had too much going on in the space. I think next year I will be only shooting comets or small mines on the left-right positions or at the same time.

I'll be posting my postmortem/lessons learned in a day or two.

[rthruska]

My failure this year was also similar to the OP in that it involved my racks...just a different flaw. I cut to expose the gun powder in the visco fuse and talon clip those areas, this year I had 100 percent success with this method which surprised me....I still dont like talon clips. My failure was from slow red visco fuse burning out once started and also some fuse jumping which will be fixed by how I run my fuse on racks. Maybe someone can offer advice on why twice in a row now, I have had red visco stop burning? i'm thinking it is due to me using zip ties. Last year it stopped right before a zip tie and this year about half a cm before...might need to change to taping?

[Engineer Cat]

I had more cakes catch fire this year then usual. Not a big deal because I don't use boards. I also need to treat my shoot site as a single position and I have about 70 feet to work with. I thought I chose the right effects after I noticed this last year but still had too much going on in the space. I think next year I will be only shooting comets or small mines on the left-right positions or at the same time.

I'll be posting my postmortem/lessons learned in a day or two.



Similar issues. I realized after the fact that besides the fan cakes everything else was going straight up. I made a slight adjustment which helped a little to fill out the sky more but it wasn't enough. Next year I'll be putting the left and right sides an more of angle to handle this. my shoot site is only a 12 x 12 dock so gotta get them spreading. lol

[barehm]

rthruska - I had one 25 shot rack that "blew out" with about 10 shells left. I was using Green visco on that rack. I don't think it actually stopped burning - I think a shell went up and knocked off the burning part of the fuse. I don't have great evidence that's what happened, but the break looks really clean on the fuse - not charred at all. I had it happen twice before where I cut my cannister fuses too short and my main fuse dipped down into the mortar itself a tiny bit. Just a guess, but anything you can do to keep the main fuse out of the way, the better:
1) don't cut fuses too short and dip the main fuse into the mortar
2) If you are using wood racks with space (or a just a single run), put your fuse on the side rather than over the mortar tubes themselves.

[Kooooou]

I had similar problems with MJG igniters, numerous big cake fires (in humid air), and 2 50 shot racks blowing to smithereens. Although the racks were my biggest loss and literally the most painful, the initiators issue cost me a good, well-planned show. My Cobra 72M and 8x 18S all did a fantastic job replacing my old ebay system but the MJG initiators failed to light over 50 cakes...yes 50...my worst fireworks show ever! I'm going back to chinese e-match next year and will just adapt them to quick plugs since that's what I have on the 72M.

[Arles]

I had similar problems with MJG igniters, numerous big cake fires (in humid air), and 2 50 shot racks blowing to smithereens. Although the racks were my biggest loss and literally the most painful, the initiators issue cost me a good, well-planned show. My Cobra 72M and 8x 18S all did a fantastic job replacing my old ebay system but the MJG initiators failed to light over 50 cakes...yes 50...my worst fireworks show ever! I'm going back to chinese e-match next year and will just adapt them to quick plugs since that's what I have on the 72M.

Can you provide a bit more detail on how you were using the MJG ignitors when they didn't work and how how they failed?

[barehm]

wow - that's a crazy fail rate. did the match go off when you looked at them?

[Kooooou]

Arles, I'll share my setup info first. There were exactly 180 items connected to initiators. I use a 72M with 8x 18S slats, and numerous Cobra-sourced breakout boards. Entire system is wired in parallel except external batteries which are 2x 12v batteries connected in series. 72M banks A and B shared channel 1, banks C and D shared channel 2. No cable run (including many 15' initiators) exceeded 65' total distance from the 72M. 72M power mode was properly set to 24V. My pre-show Cobra test launched 12 shells simultaneously using cue 18 on every slat + onboard cues (everything set to channel 1), and MJGs were directly inserted into the each shell's lift cup. Pre-show test fire had 100% success.

For the connections to cakes, I shoved the visco fuses of each cake directly into the red shroud that comes with the initiators. I then tape the shroud and visco together with black Gorilla tape. This was all done in the field on the day of the shoot after the rain passed (it's the old method I've used over several decades but with e-match). Admittedly it is my first time ever using the MJGs but it's an issue I've never experienced with hotter matches. A post show assessment confirmed that every single initiator fired which is why I applauded Cobra, and I could see the scorching on the visco fuses that I inspected. Also good to mention that I did not poke any cakes due to time constraints from a 4 hour rain delay since I'm a one man team, but I know poking would have yielded far better results.

[Kooooou]

Yes they all went off. I think they are just not hot enough for the way I'm used to e-matching my show.

[Engineer Cat]

I had similar problems with MJG igniters, numerous big cake fires (in humid air), and 2 50 shot racks blowing to smithereens. Although the racks were my biggest loss and literally the most painful, the initiators issue cost me a good, well-planned show. My Cobra 72M and 8x 18S all did a fantastic job replacing my old ebay system but the MJG initiators failed to light over 50 cakes...yes 50...my worst fireworks show ever! I'm going back to chinese e-match next year and will just adapt them to quick plugs since that's what I have on the 72M.

Wow that's a lot.

[gecko2015]

Yes they all went off. I think they are just not hot enough for the way I'm used to e-matching my show.

I think we're all still curious on the details. That is an absolutely crazy failure rate. You say the MJGs failed, but they all fired and just didn't light your cake - am I reading that right? If so, are you sure the issue wasn't the firework themselves? Storage? Age? Vendor used? I'm not saying this is the case, but you've peaked my interest given you had 50 cakes failed to fire. How do you poke and insert the MJGs on your cake?

[Rick_In_Tampa]

I've heard similar stories from a number of people now that tried to marry an initiator up with visco nose to nose and the visco didn't light, even though the initiator fired.

This year I had 7 out of 10 talons fail continuity check day of, so I replaced them all with initiators (against my better judgement) because I was out of options at that point. Before I inserted the visco fuse into the initiator shroud, I cross-cut the visco to expose new powder. Then I only inserted the visco enough so it would be in front of the match head when it fired. All 10 effects fired perfectly.

Another way to ensure an initiator lights the visco is to jam some short pieces of quickfuse into the initiator shroud before you insert the visco. The quickfuse will burn very hot and should light the visco every time.

[rthruska]

rthruska - I had one 25 shot rack that "blew out" with about 10 shells left. I was using Green visco on that rack. I don't think it actually stopped burning - I think a shell went up and knocked off the burning part of the fuse. I don't have great evidence that's what happened, but the break looks really clean on the fuse - not charred at all. I had it happen twice before where I cut my cannister fuses too short and my main fuse dipped down into the mortar itself a tiny bit. Just a guess, but anything you can do to keep the main fuse out of the way, the better:
1) don't cut fuses too short and dip the main fuse into the mortar
2) If you are using wood racks with space (or a just a single run), put your fuse on the side rather than over the mortar tubes themselves.

Good thoughts, I have never thought about keeping the main fuse away from the top of the mortars but it makes sense. appreciate the feedback

[gecko2015]

Ohhhhh....I apologize, I completely overlooked his detailed response on the setup. Yup, gotcha. Makes much more sense now.

[Kooooou]

Gecko details are above. I tried to put as much as I could, but forgot vendors. I have many vendors, I travel the country for my rarer stuff but all fireworks are the usual that everyone can get a hold of. Storage, once in my hands, is climate controlled space with low humidity. Storage at shoot site is in an enclosed trailer until weather clears or if a storm sneaks up on me, under a 50' square tarp held down tight to the ground with 16" rebar and paracord at every grommet. Fireworks age varies, but the failure to transfer enough heat occurred on newer and older cakes including stuff just out this year like Siren and Bite of Death. I don't shoot damaged or leaky cakes. My site conditions have always been rainy and windy for some hours during setup, for almost as long as I can remember. Like Rick mentioned (thanks for the tip Rick as I now have a year to test things out or just go with the old way), I connect head of match to head of fuse...same method I've used for ages. Since it worked with ematch but not with firewire, I don't mind going back to ematch as I have plenty left from years of orders. I really only made the switch to firewire due to the ease of QuickPlug connectors but switching to ematch and adding Quickplug to the ends isn't hard to do even without the crazy expensive crimping tool now that I've started tinkering with it after my somewhat failed show.

EDIT: Sorry Gecko I replied while you were replying

[barehm]

So... back to my own failure of Visco Clips and adding in Kooooou's failure attaching to Visco, I have a new theory after watching various MJG videos. What really triggered this line of thinking was Engineer Cat's suggestion to try the new MJG initiators that end with the plastic shroud for use with Visco. Feel free to poke holes in this idea:
In the videos, they consistently talk about making sure the visco does NOT touch the initiator match head. I knew in the back of my head that I put the fuse further into the clip (at the hole or past it) and I suspect this is a cardinal sin with the way the match head burns - hence why they go out of their way to say "don't let them touch!" Perhaps Kooooo and I suffered from the same situation - if the visco and exposed powder core is actually touching the match head, then the flame from the match will actually just go around the outside of the visco - hence why in my original picture the outside of the visco looks charred, but it didn't light. The part of the match head that is touching the core ignites poorly or maybe not at all (I didn't look).

Do any of you have experience with making sure the visco/perfect fuse is pulled back from match head and whether or not that makes a difference? I have to think MJG has tested the bejesus out of this and why they made it a point in their videos.

[Kooooou]

Barehm, I just tried Rick's trick of using a piece of angle-cut quickfuse inside the shroud for additional fire and it worked great (shroud almost looks melted now) even when connected to a heavily lacquered green test fuse. I'm going to use this method since it is quicker then retrofitting thousands of ematches with quickplugs, but now I'm kicking myself for not buying the 72M with traditional speaker terminal ports as that would have been quicker in the grand scheme of things. Live and learn I guess. And for the record you guessed right, I made every firewire match head touch the visco fuse because I feel better when there is a positive engagement as opposed to guessing how far in I am with the match head.

[barehm]

awesome to know that test worked good - I had 100% ignition on shells I fused with quick fuse, so agree this method seems safe. We're all learning together :).

Rick - thanks for the good advice!

[mguerra]

These work well with fast paper fuse https://pyroworks.us/fusing-aids/e-v-connector.html I had some 1.3 shells with bare quick match and no ports. I slipped a 3 inch piece of fast paper fuse in to the quickmatch, inserted and taped the other end of the fast fuse in to this connector, then inserted the match or the Firewire. I shot two shows last weekend with this rig and had 100% fire. For visco you would use them as is, or tape a piece of fast paper fuse to the visco and then connect your match to the fast fuse with the connector. I also have used the soda straw method, I have posted this video here several times:
https://youtu.be/d9fLAYEuCv4 If you can get quickmatch, you can insert your visco in to the quickmatch and then use this connector for the match: https://pyroworks.us/fusing-aids/e-qm-connector.html That trick is in this video:https://youtu.be/BfI9Vfxxpus

[Engineer Cat]

Do any of you have experience with making sure the visco/perfect fuse is pulled back from match head and whether or not that makes a difference? I have to think MJG has tested the bejesus out of this and why they made it a point in their videos.

Yep, I had purchased those visco clips to help make sure they don't touch the match head but didn't like the result. This year I just made sure when I inserted the visco in the shroud it wasn't touching the head. Those new visco initiators have a clear shroud that is longer so there's plenty of room to secure the visco to it and visually make sure it's not touching the head.

All of my racks that had this setup worked perfectly. In 2019 I used the straw over the shroud method which provides room to tape the visco and keep it off the head. I only had 1 that didn't fire that year but that appeared to be a system issue as the match didn't fire at all. I also wasn't adding that to a ton of fuses only about 12 shells that year.

5864

[barehm]

MJG had a bunch of the 1 ft initiators with this clear visco shroud on sale, so I bought a few boxes for next year. I'll have to re-use some wire from this years shoot with the quick connect plugs on them, but shouldn't be too hard since I only have 10-15 racks that I need to trigger this way. Thanks again for the advice.

[randomrobot]

I had a pretty successful show. I felt it had really nice pacing and I'll try to post it when I can. First time fusing all my boards together and everything went off as planned, except my main finale rack didn't go off with my finale cakes so that was a little disappointing. Fuse stopped right at the zip tie where I tied it into the rest of the show. I just lit it at the end and it was still entertaining and my best show yet. I had similar issues with cakes catching fire during the show that I had to garden hose the flames down. Pretty sure I just used too much masking tape to try to protect the fuse a little but instead just gave the sparks something to ignite. Next time I'll probably just use duct tape and less off it. My main rack had (3) canisters not fire off that were on quick fuse so I just need to make sure I have more contact area. All (3) were 1.3 salutes so maybe there something different with their fuses that I need to learn about. I had a couple of Radical Recoils that popped their tubes out of the milkcrate rack I had going and not sure what that was about. I kind of think that they didn't shoot through the duct tape and exploded on the ground. There was still a fire I was trying to attend to and didn't see 100% what happened. The last issued I had is I was playing "America the Beautiful Radio" on Pandora over a speaker and for whatever reason, when the show actually started, a bagpipe version of "Amazing Grace" started and played for a good portion of the show. Really? C'mon man!