newbie to wireless firing

[blazerman]

Hey all, love this forum!

I have been putting on a 15-20 minute show at our lake community for several years, started with random hand lighting (unsafe anarchy with a ton of waste) that we did for several years.
In the interest of better shows & safety a few years ago I started laying things out on paper and doing timed fusing of multiple cake boards so we only had to light a few times - much better but still unpredictable and not very safe.

This year I want to do a show on a floating platform to get more distance between the crowd and the fireworks so I got a wireless firing system and have everything pretty well laid out on paper.

I am now having a difficult time deciding how to trigger the cakes. I am trying to figure out if using talons directly on the cake fuses is reliable enough and the internet is - big surprise - full of varying opinions so I figured this would be the best way to get quality advice based on some real world experience. A few seconds of timing cake-cake isn't a big deal to me, I am really just looking for simple and reliable for my first attempt.

Any advice from the experienced group here would be much appreciated, I'm sure this has been beaten to death before....

[nayslayer]

What fireing system are you using, and how many cues? I just do a backyard show for most part, and just use talons on the canisters. I ematch all the cakes for the most part, some cases fuse a few cakes together.

[blazerman]

What fireing system are you using, and how many cues? I just do a backyard show for most part, and just use talons on the canisters. I ematch all the cakes for the most part, some cases fuse a few cakes together.

I got a good deal on one of the chinese ebay units with 80 cues, cobra stuff is down the road a little. I am not doing any shells, just cakes for simplicity right now.
By ematch do you mean like the firewire intiators? How do you attach them to visco?

[Greenville Pyro]

First, welcome and this is where many of us started. It sounds like you are doing a straight show not trying to time things to music (pyromusical). If that is the case, and safety is the goal, talons certainly work fine. They will use a coil in a clip to heat up the fuse that is already on your product. This is not precise enough for pyromusicals (timing to a beat etc) due to the fact that fuses are inconsistent. In addition, the coils take about a second to fully heat up. In contrast, igniters like MJG shoot fire through the end of the "match head". This can be connected to the fuse as well, but there's that fuse thing again. So, what you can do is to "poke" into a lift charge with a brass awl (no sparking). Then, the MJG is inserted. The time for the electricity to go from the firing system to the match head is 0.1 seconds. The black powder goes and its almost instantaneous. That's basically the difference. A firing system like Cobra can be configured for either mode (2 seconds of electricity through the wire, or 0.1 seconds). If its purely for safety, Talons save you the hassle of poking cakes. Some may argue that the talons may be inconsistent (which can be true), but with poking, you have the (albeit small in experienced hands) risk of missing the lift charge. If you poke right next to the fuse, and feel "sand or gritty kitty litter" at the end of your poke, you're probably good. Hope this helps.

[blazerman]

First, welcome and this is where many of us started. It sounds like you are doing a straight show not trying to time things to music (pyromusical). If that is the case, and safety is the goal, talons certainly work fine. They will use a coil in a clip to heat up the fuse that is already on your product. This is not precise enough for pyromusicals (timing to a beat etc) due to the fact that fuses are inconsistent. In addition, the coils take about a second to fully heat up. In contrast, igniters like MJG shoot fire through the end of the "match head". This can be connected to the fuse as well, but there's that fuse thing again. So, what you can do is to "poke" into a lift charge with a brass awl (no sparking). Then, the MJG is inserted. The time for the electricity to go from the firing system to the match head is 0.1 seconds. The black powder goes and its almost instantaneous. That's basically the difference. A firing system like Cobra can be configured for either mode (2 seconds of electricity through the wire, or 0.1 seconds). If its purely for safety, Talons save you the hassle of poking cakes. Some may argue that the talons may be inconsistent (which can be true), but with poking, you have the (albeit small in experienced hands) risk of missing the lift charge. If you poke right next to the fuse, and feel "sand or gritty kitty litter" at the end of your poke, you're probably good. Hope this helps.

Thanks!
Sounds like I need to look into the mjg igniters if I decide to poke them, if I try the talons is there a brand or source that is recommended for reliability?

[Big Worm]

Check out Pyroboom.com, they have the Red Dragon talon clips. They are the best ones that i have seen. The wire that heats up is a little thicker and seems to be better quality than all the others that i have seen.

[upNdown]

I'm not sure why anybody would bother with the talon clips, now that the mjg igniters are available to the public, as is Chinese ematch on ebay (though probably not exactly legal.) But I've never tried talons, so that's all I'll say about that.

[Kooooou]

I used a generic wireless chinese system for years before my very recent change to Cobra. I would strongly suggest steering clear of Talons and get some MJG Firewires if you still can. The downside to the talons are 1. Should not be wired in series if you prefer series wiring 2. At least with my generic system, the Talon needs a longer press of the remote buttons to heat them up enough so you're possibly wasting batteries faster and guessing how long to press the buttons 3. You don't get the satisfaction of almost instant ignition and the audible pop (when the fireworks aren't already booming overhead) 4. Sometimes my hottest burning main fuses were too thick for the talon so I felt I might be damaging the igniter when I forced it shut

These issues are pretty much non-existent with MJG igniters.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Very difficult question to answer without knowing what your Chinses system is capable of supporting power/channel wise and how many effects you plan to have in your show. So if I assume that you have 80 effects and 80 cues, then you should be using MJG initiators. Period. Poke your cakes and don't mess with visco ever again. I abhor talons. That's all I'll say about that. The ONLY visco I light with an initiator is the quickfuse that I wire my mortars with, and that's not technically visco. So my point is, forget about lighting visco. Poke your cakes and use initiators. Dave has tons of videos on You Tube that show how to do it. It's easy to do and extremely reliable. If you plan on making it to the Cobra level as you stated in your post, that's what you'll be doing then. So start doing it now. You'll be glad you did.

[blazerman]

Got it, poking/MJG it is. A little youtube university and then time to get busy. Thanks for the replies, I came to the right place!

[Arles]

Got it, poking/MJG it is. A little youtube university and then time to get busy. Thanks for the replies, I came to the right place!

I've labored over the decision and done countless hours of research, and I'm switching from talons to MJG initiators this year. Just be aware there is additional risk of MJG causing accidental ignition. Watch and read everything you can. I think most would say it's unnecessary, but if you'll be poking cakes, they make a plug that houses the ignitor and sends the spark into the lift charge rather than putting the ignitor directly in the lift charge that I plan on using for the cakes that don't have a built in port. There have been a few catastrophic accidents on professional crews caused by an e-match going off accidentally. I'm not saying they're the same, but they're both subject to friction and impact. I don't know how anyone can rule out a minor manufacturing defect in a mass produced item like MJG initiators that could result in accidental firing.

[AxeElf]

I guess I'm too late, but I would have said to just go with the talons. It doesn't sound like you're used to anything requiring any kind of precise timing, and if you use the talons correctly and conscientiously (I usually scrape the fuse a little into the powder where I clip on the talon, and then tape it closed) they should be less labor and less risk for you and function just as well. In the last three years of using my yellow box, I've had maybe 3 talons out of about 400 cues fail; I call that acceptably reliable, though admittedly, I have no experience with other systems or poking cakes. It just sounds like maybe that might be an unnecessary next step for you at this point in your hobby. But of course, you do you; I'm just another opinion.

[Arles]

I guess I'm too late, but I would have said to just go with the talons. It doesn't sound like you're used to anything requiring any kind of precise timing, and if you use the talons correctly and conscientiously (I usually scrape the fuse a little into the powder where I clip on the talon, and then tape it closed) they should be less labor and less risk for you and function just as well. In the last three years of using my yellow box, I've had maybe 3 talons out of about 400 cues fail; I call that acceptably reliable, though admittedly, I have no experience with other systems or poking cakes. It just sounds like maybe that might be an unnecessary next step for you at this point in your hobby. But of course, you do you; I'm just another opinion.

I agree. I have had 100% success (out of approx 250) using a Cobra and the talons they sell, including some pretty thick 40 second/foot fuse. If I didn't need the timing, I'd stick with the talons myself. That said, I don't know the capability of your firing system to deliver that much juice to 80 talons.

[Birdman]

Here's just one of many videos on how to poke cakes. I don't recommend removing the fuse just in case you need hand fire it for some reason. Just poke next to it:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf1f8DWVMT4

If you're stepping up to a Cobra system you may as well learn to poke cakes because that's what you'll need to do to get the most out of a Cobra. Talons are fine if you don't want precision and are just looking to replace hand firing with safer remote firing. I would also suggest you expose the powder in the fuse where you clip the talon as already suggested. With that said...once you get a taste of e-firing you will likely want more precision and the ability to script. Just seems to be a natural progression with most. My story started out very much like yours. I started with a Chinese system and visco to MJG/e-match connectors just to make things safer after a couple minor hand lighting mishaps. The next show I was poking cakes and the show after that I was scripting with a Cobra system.

[blazerman]

Since it sounds like poking is the advanced way to go I may as well go that direction and get the learning curve behind me - I try to do something a little better every year. Anybody have experience with how many of the mjg units can a single cue reliably fire if you connect them in parallel? I am using the yellow ebay firing system.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Since it sounds like poking is the advanced way to go I may as well go that direction and get the learning curve behind me - I try to do something a little better every year. Anybody have experience with how many of the mjg units can a single cue reliably fire if you connect them in parallel? I am using the yellow ebay firing system.

Here are the spec's off Cobra's website: NOTE: You can fire more if you wire in series.
5713

[AxeElf]

What I'm afraid of is the more deeply engaged hobbyists giving you the impression that you CAN'T "script" or put on a pyromusical unless you have a Cobra with an audio box and you poke all your cakes for instant firing. Sure, you can make the timing of each individual shot more precise with a logarithmically increasing investment of time and money, but the return on that investment just isn't that great, for my money. With a little planning and attention to detail, you can script a perfectly amazing pyromusical with a hand-fired Chinese system using talons--and you don't even need an Audio Box!

Here's a minute or so of a finale I'm particularly proud of, partially because I was able to pull it off the first time I used the Chinese system. I used talons and no other hardware/software, other than using my phone to Bluetooth the soundtrack to a couple of speakers. (Admittedly, I have enhanced the audio in the video.)

The Greatest Show (https://drive.google.com/file/d/19oLf47k-hv10GDv-yspctZjq2EUlJln6/view?usp=sharing)

[Mattp]

Funny that you came here to get some clarity for your question..and still ended up with a 50/50.. LOL.I think everyone on here started the same way.. and progressed each year.. I think the line is .. “if your using a fuse longer than your arm.. it’s time for a firing system”.. haha. .
Personally I like the reliability and instantness of the mjg.. they now even sell them with a simple tube to connect to the visco . poking cakes is definitely more time consuming and yes slightly dangerous.. but. That is also what I will be doing in my spare time for the next month . Good luck with your choice

[Scotty Rockets]

I started with talon type igniters years ago, and I consistently experienced around 5-10% fail rate. This was after securing them well from any movement that may break the ninochrom filament. With Ematch and firewire I get about a .25-.5% fail rate.

On another note be very careful with that system you have, recently there has been 2 incidences of these things malfunctioning and firing when not intended to.

[blazerman]

Funny that you came here to get some clarity for your question..and still ended up with a 50/50.. LOL.I think everyone on here started the same way.. and progressed each year.. I think the line is .. “if your using a fuse longer than your arm.. it’s time for a firing system”.. haha. .
Personally I like the reliability and instantness of the mjg.. they now even sell them with a simple tube to connect to the visco . poking cakes is definitely more time consuming and yes slightly dangerous.. but. That is also what I will be doing in my spare time for the next month . Good luck with your choice

The internet is like that but I always try to remember how much I paid for the advice; at least here I know I am getting info from folks that are passionate and actually DO this and not some couch cowboy that stayed in a holiday inn once...

After hearing the same thing over and over - talons work fine BUT... that helps me make my decision. I try to take things a step at a time but some steps are worth skipping.

Thanks, I am optimistic!

[blazerman]

I started with talon type igniters years ago, and I consistently experienced around 5-10% fail rate. This was after securing them well from any movement that may break the ninochrom filament. With Ematch and firewire I get about a .25-.5% fail rate.

On another note be very careful with that system you have, recently there has been 2 incidences of these things malfunctioning and firing when not intended to.

Thanks for the advice & the heads up, I will keep that in mind.

[Birdman]

What I'm afraid of is the more deeply engaged hobbyists giving you the impression that you CAN'T "script" or put on a pyromusical unless you have a Cobra with an audio box and you poke all your cakes for instant firing. Sure, you can make the timing of each individual shot more precise with a logarithmically increasing investment of time and money, but the return on that investment just isn't that great, for my money. With a little planning and attention to detail, you can script a perfectly amazing pyromusical with a hand-fired Chinese system using talons--and you don't even need an Audio Box!

Here's a minute or so of a finale I'm particularly proud of, partially because I was able to pull it off the first time I used the Chinese system. I used talons and no other hardware/software, other than using my phone to Bluetooth the soundtrack to a couple of speakers. (Admittedly, I have enhanced the audio in the video.)

The Greatest Show (https://drive.google.com/file/d/19oLf47k-hv10GDv-yspctZjq2EUlJln6/view?usp=sharing)

Good points but Blazerman was the one who mentioned he was planning to upgrade to a Cobra system down the road so the Cobra and cake poking conversations didn't come out of the blue. It's just as easy to poke a cake then it is to attach a MJG to a fuse and you get the added benefit of instant firing. You also can't mix talons and MJG's on the same Cobra mod because different firing modes need to be used. If you use product with eports, MJG's become the standard.

As for firing systems, it's just a matter of what tool you want to use for the job and how much money and/or effort want to put into getting the job done. There are pro's and cons to any firing systems. I really liked having many 4 cue mods that the consumer systems use and I do somewhat miss being more hands on with firing my show. While scripting allows me to enjoy the show with my audience, it's a bit like being in the passenger seat rather than in the drivers seat. They use to call me the phantom of the opera when I used my consumer system and I think even they miss watching me firing the cues one by one. I just ran into too many hiccups as my shows got more complicated. I forgot to turn on a mod once and there is no way to know that from the remote like you can with a Cobra. I had the zone button get stuck on me once which messed up my timing and also cause me to miss a cue with a long duration cake wired to it. Lastly managing all of those AA batteries was a pain.

I don't have an audio box for my Cobra. I just add a countdown or intro to the soundtrack I scripted and play that track. I start my script on the remote when the countdown/intro ends. Besides not needing an audio box you don't need any upgrades like cases, LiPo batteries etc. You can always add upgrades down the road. A 5 gal. bucket over your mod will protect it or even a plastic bag does the trick. The packaging Cobra uses will protect everything just fine during storage and transport if you take care of it. Good 9v batteries will last for several shows and the mods do a battery check to let you know if you have good enough batteries. A disposable hand warmer will keep them warm if you shoot in cold weather. Add-ons are nice but not necessary.

You don't need to use Cobra show creator either. It's not difficult to manually create a script using the free Excel template. If you want to use cobra show creator, and time things right, you should be able to create scripts for 2 seasons with a 1 year license. And lastly, you can also use more then one firing system. If you have a consumer system you can use it while using the cobra to script the other cues. There's no need to wait until you can afford to replace all of your consumer cues with Cobra cues and also don't overlook using slats to increase cue counts at a lower cost than adding cues via Cobra mods.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Birdman - I would only disagree with the following comment: "You also can't mix talons and MJG's on the same Cobra mod because different firing modes need to be used."

You absolutely can mix talons and MJG's on the same mod. When you set the mod to "talon mode" it will fire both the talons and the MJG initiators just fine. You just need to be careful that you don't fire things closer than 2 sec apart.

[Birdman]

Birdman - I would only disagree with the following comment: "You also can't mix talons and MJG's on the same Cobra mod because different firing modes need to be used."

You absolutely can mix talons and MJG's on the same mod. When you set the mod to "talon mode" it will fire both the talons and the MJG initiators just fine. You just need to be careful that you don't fire things closer than 2 sec apart.

Thanks for clarifying! I just assumed two modes meant no mixing but now that you point this out it makes total sense. So it seems the only limitation is the "2 second rule" which is important information to have if you plan on mixing talons and MJG's.

[mguerra]

I match all my cakes by poking them except for the high shot count, small diameter tubes. You can't poke them and get a match in there, the tube is too small. There are a number of ways to get a match to light that fuse. A very easy way to do it is to cut a short piece of soda straw, secure the match in it, slip the cake fuse in the other end and secure with tape. Check this out:
https://youtu.be/d9fLAYEuCv4 Or if you can get quick match you can do this:
https://youtu.be/BfI9Vfxxpus