Using Vinyl Tubing with MJGs

[jamisonlm3]

A while back, Dave started a thread (http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/showthread.php?8241-Sneak-Peek-at-my-next-YouTube-video-subject&highlight=vinyl) about MJGs that had the shroud removed and inserted into a small piece of vinyl tubing. Since then, I thought it was a pretty good idea, especially for people that intend on using them with fuse. There are other ways to do it, but it was the one way that stuck with me.

Normally, I'd stuff 2-3 pieces of fuse into the shroud. All would have been cut off at a sharp angle. That way has worked fine for me, but it has been a bit finicky. Using short pieces of vinyl tubing might make things easier in my opinion. Vinyl tubing can be found all over the place and isn't expensive. The two little rolls I have came from Home Depot. They cost me under $10 for both rolls with the 1/4" being the cheaper of the two.

Here are the two rolls I got.

http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=5704&stc=1

In a way, I like the 1/4" tubing more than the larger 3/8". The smaller tubing has to be squished slightly for two piece of fuse to be inserted. It actually holds the fuses quite snugly when it trys to spring back into shape.

http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=5705&stc=1

The downside is the MJG needs to be fixed in some way. They don't fit as tightly as the examples from Dave's post. By the looks of th wires, they were quite tight fit. I think a zip tie around the tubing behind the MJG would be more than enough. Taping is also an option, but a zip tie prevents them from being pulled or shot out of the tubing when fired.

http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=5701&stc=1

The larger tubing is able to easily fit the MJG with the shroud and even more fuse. I can easily get 3 fuses in it.

http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=5702&stc=1

If you really want to, you can even get 4 into it. The fit is a bit tighter, but it's not hard to do it. I like to think of it as more surface area that could ignite. Maybe an advantage it has over the smaller tubing? I don't think it really matters, but I like the idea. Either way, I would tape or zip tie the larger tube on MJG side as well. Like the smaller tubing, the MJG can't be pulled out and may even seal better with the larger tubing.

http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=5703&stc=1

The zip ties I used were small 4" ones. I didn't have to pull on them hard, but the tag end isn't very long. I think slightly longer ones would be easier to use. Both the vinyl tubing and the zip ties are easily cut with a pair of anvil style utility cutters like the pair below. I imagine most already have a pair or of something similar since they're quite common for cutting fuse. Zip ties are cheap too. Some may already have them for their normal fusing.

http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=5699&stc=1

[displayfireworks1]

That may be a higher quality tubing than is needed. I suggest to run some testing using one fuse, multiple fuse etc. Try different size and length of tubing etc. If someone does not want to buy the new MJG Visco I guess you can retrofit your current match.

[Birdman]

I agree. That seems like overkill. I've seen videos of people doing similar with plastic drinking straws. Also, why green visco to yellow visco? Just go from the MJG to whatever fuse you want. If anything I would omit the green visco and go to faster fuse but maybe there's something I'm missing.

[jamisonlm3]

Dave, what do you mean it's higher quality tubing? I think a piece of either size no more than 2" long would be more than enogh to hold the MJG and any fuse used. I'll see if I can't do some testing this weekend. I don't see a reason either wouldn't work equally as well as pictured.

Birdman, the reason for the green fuse is to create more fire to help guarantee the main fuse is ignited. They also act as spacers so the main fuse is held more securely in the tubing. This is more true for the larger tubing than the smaller one. I'm kinda torn between the two.

[displayfireworks1]

That tubing appears to be high quality and rigid. Someone suggested using aquarium type tubing. Not as rigid and may come in smaller sizing. What you created will most likely work also. I'll try to find time to post a picture of the MJG one close up. Now all we need to do is to get China to make all Consumer Fireworks products have the same size fuse. LOL

[displayfireworks1]

Here are pictures of the MJG Visco. Consider making them to accommodate the fuse supplied on a Consumer Fireworks item. You usually do not see the type of fuse you are using supplied on a consumer cake. Of course you can also make them different sizes depending on your need. . Here is what the MJG tubing looks like.
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http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=5707&stc=1
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http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=5708&stc=1
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http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=5709&stc=1
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http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=5710&stc=1

[jamisonlm3]

I'm not using the stock fuses. From what I've seen, they can be quite small and in pretty rough condition. I watching your video about the new MJGs and the tubing on them must be very soft compared to vinyl tubing I have. I thought they might have heated the tubing to insert the MJG, but I guess with it be as saft as it seems, they push it in. I think I'll take 3-4 examples and tape them to a board to test out. The 1st will be with the 1/4" tubing like from above, but taped on the fuse end while zip tied on the other. The 2nd will be the same, but with with zip ties on both end. The 3rd and 4th will be the same, but with the larger 3/8 tubing.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Technically, the shroud on an initiator is a tube too. Why not use what's already there?

[jamisonlm3]

The tubing is basically extending the MJG's shroud. I was already sticking fuse into the shroud and taping, but it's a bit finicky. The tubing acting as a longer shroud makes it easier to do that.

[displayfireworks1]

This is just my speculation in the MJG Visco Initiators, the tubing is thick because it has to serve a dual purpose. It has to provide a certain amount of shock resistance to the match head and be long enough to allow a fuse to be inserted. If you feel compelled to make your own you do not need that thick of a tubing.

[jamisonlm3]

When you say thick, do you mean the wall thickness or the outer diameter of the tubing? That soft tubing on the new MJGs would probably handle bumps well. The tubing I have isn't hard by any means and will probably protect the head just fine too. I don't plan on doing the same thing as the new MJGs though. I'll poke my cakes and stick the fuses into the tubing. On the day of the shoot, I'll stick an MJG in the other end. I'm not converting my MJGs to a version with tubing. This is just another method of fusing multiple cakes together that I think is easier to do than what I've already been doing.

[mguerra]

Try this:
https://youtu.be/d9fLAYEuCv4 Cheap, easy, effective. You could put a little piece of fast paper fuse in there to get more fire, but this has worked for me as shown. I only do this for small bore cakes that have a tube too small to poke and get a match in.

[jamisonlm3]

Dave mentioned people using straws, but that's the first time I've seen it. Both do the same thing, but I already have the tubing. I also kinda like that the vinyl tubing is clear.

[displayfireworks1]

If the "Dave" is me I don't remember recommending using a straw. I sure we can all think of ways to improvise something similar to the MJG Visco Initiator . The advantage of the MJG ones are it will bring more novice users of fireworks more and more into electrical firing. A new firing system from Cobra is slowly being introduced as an affordable and easy way to connect Consumer Fireworks to a firing system for these novice users. This MJG Visco device and a quick plug helps to simplify that process. I will be getting a video out soon to my YouTube audience in regard to all of this.
Once you are an advanced user like most of the forums members on pyrotalk. We want more of an instant fire when we press a button and we are using an advanced fireworks firing system. If you watched my last video where I showed up late to help a friend with a backyard show. They are still many long fuse users out there than we realize. The industry as a whole needs to move these folks along to a plug and play format. It would also be great to get China to agree on a universal size fuse on Consumer Fireworks. This will help to further develop devices that connect to that fuse.

[jamisonlm3]

Sorry, you're right. It was Birdman who mentioned people using drinking straws in the third post.

[Okimarine]

I'm not sure that I completely understand the purpose of the Vinyl Tube.

I just use the shroud that comes on them. Slide the shrould back:
5723

Overlap the fuse and tip of the igniter:
5724

Slide the shrould back up into place:
5725

It pinch's the fuse to the tip of the igniter and holds firmly in place. Larger fuse is alittle harder to slide the shrould back up all the way but still makes great contact with the tip of the igniter. The splice / union is tight enough to easily support the weight of the shell. I couldn't get this photo turned properly but the shell is hanging in the air securely from the shrould.
5726

If using multiple fuses, just tape the remaining fuse to the spliced one going into the shrould.

[upNdown]

If the "Dave" is me I don't remember recommending using a straw. I sure we can all think of ways to improvise something similar to the MJG Visco Initiator . The advantage of the MJG ones are it will bring more novice users of fireworks more and more into electrical firing. A new firing system from Cobra is slowly being introduced as an affordable and easy way to connect Consumer Fireworks to a firing system for these novice users. This MJG Visco device and a quick plug helps to simplify that process. I will be getting a video out soon to my YouTube audience in regard to all of this.
Once you are an advanced user like most of the forums members on pyrotalk. We want more of an instant fire when we press a button and we are using an advanced fireworks firing system. If you watched my last video where I showed up late to help a friend with a backyard show. They are still many long fuse users out there than we realize. The industry as a whole needs to move these folks along to a plug and play format. It would also be great to get China to agree on a universal size fuse on Consumer Fireworks. This will help to further develop devices that connect to that fuse.

After several years here, I?m still mostly long fuse, and it?s because of my partner?s hesitancy. We?re incorporating more efiring into our show this year, but we?ll still be mostly long fuse because my buddy JUST ISN?T COMFORTABLE WITH THE IDEA OF POKING CAKES. We are true partners in this thing and we?re both grown men with plenty of intelligence and common sense, but he just really doesn?t like the idea of modifying cakes like that, and I respect that. I bring it up every now and then, and we talk about it, and I bet we?ll get there eventually.
I mention all this because it?s probably something most of us pyros overlook - the average consumer has a healthy respect/fear of fireworks. If manufacturers would build ports into consumer cakes, so people could just plug their igniters into them, it would be simple and people would do it. But tell the average consumer to get a special tool to jam into their cake, somewhere near the fuse, and hope for the best? Sorry, but that isn?t realistic. And I?ve seen enough pictures of people poking cakes in their kitchens that I think we?re probably better off not telling the average consumer to do it.

We need ematch ports on consumer cakes! Let the fireworks store guy show them - this is where you plug it in - and those electronic firing systems will sell themselves.

[jamisonlm3]

Okimarine, that may or may not work with MJGs, I don't know. Either way, I'd like to be delicate with them. The reason for the tubing, I've already said. Sticking the fuse in the shroud is a bit finicky. With the tubing, it's easier imo. I can use multiple fuses for more fire. It's cheap insurance to me.

[Okimarine]

I've already said. Sticking the fuse in the shroud is a bit finicky. With the tubing, it's easier imo. I can use multiple fuses for more fire. It's cheap insurance to me.

Oh, sorry. Not sure how I missed that on your initial post. I probably should have gone to bed instead of replying to the forums that late.

[Arles]

After several years here, I?m still mostly long fuse, and it?s because of my partner?s hesitancy. We?re incorporating more efiring into our show this year, but we?ll still be mostly long fuse because my buddy JUST ISN?T COMFORTABLE WITH THE IDEA OF POKING CAKES. We are true partners in this thing and we?re both grown men with plenty of intelligence and common sense, but he just really doesn?t like the idea of modifying cakes like that, and I respect that. I bring it up every now and then, and we talk about it, and I bet we?ll get there eventually.
I mention all this because it?s probably something most of us pyros overlook - the average consumer has a healthy respect/fear of fireworks. If manufacturers would build ports into consumer cakes, so people could just plug their igniters into them, it would be simple and people would do it. But tell the average consumer to get a special tool to jam into their cake, somewhere near the fuse, and hope for the best? Sorry, but that isn?t realistic. And I?ve seen enough pictures of people poking cakes in their kitchens that I think we?re probably better off not telling the average consumer to do it.

We need ematch ports on consumer cakes! Let the fireworks store guy show them - this is where you plug it in - and those electronic firing systems will sell themselves.

How about talons as a compromise? You can get near instant firing by clipping the talons right next to the tube that the fuse enters, or if you're not comfortable with opening the cake up, just clip it right outside the box and it will still typically fire within a second or two.

[upNdown]

How about talons as a compromise? You can get near instant firing by clipping the talons right next to the tube that the fuse enters, or if you're not comfortable with opening the cake up, just clip it right outside the box and it will still typically fire within a second or two.

Honestly, I’m cool with what I’m doing. Though I’d like to try poking cakes and going fully electronic, there’s a part of me that really enjoys the long fuse. My rant was less about my shows and more about what I perceive to be a bump in the road for the industry, at this point.
Personally, for my shows, the biggest reason I’d want to move to efiring is that instant fire / exact timing that you get with ematch. I know plenty of people are good with talons, I just see them as a compromise (good choice of words by you) which I don’t really need to make.

[mguerra]

"If manufacturers would build ports into consumer cakes, so people could just plug their igniters into them, it would be simple and people would do it." Spirit of 76 has plenty of consumer product with ports as does Dominator and Vulcan. I use a lot of it. Poking cakes with a brass poke is easy and is not rocket science, the "average consumer" may not do it but motivated hobbyists will. There is certainly a risk to hand lighting fused product; and frankly I think poking cakes to put in a match so you can efire from a distance is safer. If anyone has ever inadvertently ignited a firework while poking in to the lift with brass, I have never heard of it. There are lots of ways to bridge ematch and firewire to visco. Quickmatch is excellent, but you can also use empty Quickmatch piping, the penny wrapper trick is a version of this. The piping is not ATF regulated. Soda straws, tubing, the inventive mind can come up with all sorts of methods. I will say, I do prefer the ported product from Spirit because it's so fast and easy. If all the manufacturers put both a port and a fuse, we would have it made!!

[displayfireworks1]

"If manufacturers would build ports into consumer cakes, so people could just plug their igniters into them, it would be simple and people would do it." Spirit of 76 has plenty of consumer product with ports as does Dominator and Vulcan. I use a lot of it. Poking cakes with a brass poke is easy and is not rocket science, the "average consumer" may not do it but motivated hobbyists will. There is certainly a risk to hand lighting fused product; and frankly I think poking cakes to put in a match so you can efire from a distance is safer. If anyone has ever inadvertently ignited a firework while poking in to the lift with brass, I have never heard of it. There are lots of ways to bridge ematch and firewire to visco. Quickmatch is excellent, but you can also use empty Quickmatch piping, the penny wrapper trick is a version of this. The piping is not ATF regulated. Soda straws, tubing, the inventive mind can come up with all sorts of methods. I will say, I do prefer the ported product from Spirit because it's so fast and easy. If all the manufacturers put both a port and a fuse, we would have it made!!

Those products with ports you are getting from Dominator , Spirit of 76 and Vulcan may be Articles of Pyrotechnics. I know you are licensed and have access to them. Not everyone has access to purchase those products. My displayfireworks1 products have the ports for those that need them and know about them. The major players and trade organizations need to get together and agree the on the direction the industry is going with plug and play in the Consumer Fireworks line. It is such a competitive industry with two separate trade organization competing for market share, I am not sure if that day will ever arrive. Also as they both try to keep their Display Fireworks members profitable selling shows no one but they can produce, they can't allow the backyard fireworks enthusiast to design and choreograph a show similar to what they are selling.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

upNdown made a great point about poking cakes vs just using fuse or talons. Like everything else in life, playing with pyro is a risk vs. reward kind of proposition. Those who are willing to take the bigger risks are going to reap the bigger rewards. So like with anything else in life, you need to manage your expectations. If you're not willing to poke cakes or use initiators/ematch, then you're not going to be able to put on the kind of pyro-musical that makes peoples eyes water. You can get close! Maybe. But you're never going to achieve a show close to perfection like the show most of us strive for each year. If you're okay with that; and there's certainly no shame in that!; then stick with the method(s) you deem safer. Above all else, safety has to been everyone's number 1 concern.

[mguerra]

As far as safety, a Talon lights a visco fuse, which can have a hang fire. If you don't have 100% control over the discharge area, someone, possibly yourself, could go in there before the cool down period and get hurt with a delayed ignition. Poking and matching in to the lift virtually eliminates this hang fire risk. The match will either pop or not. Having used both Talons and matches, I have found consumer fuse is not as reliable as a match in the lift.On a side note, if your product gets wet, even after it dries out, the lift charge can be altered such that it burns very erratically, ignites slowly like a hang fire and causes low breaks or catos. Neither visco nor a match can fix this! If your product gets wet and dries out, don't put it in a show. I go somewhere by myself where it's wet after a rain, and shoot it to see what happens. You'll be surprised at the various ways these products will malfunction!

[AxeElf]

If you're not willing to poke cakes or use initiators/ematch, then you're not going to be able to put on the kind of pyro-musical that makes peoples eyes water. You can get close! Maybe. But you're never going to achieve a show close to perfection like the show most of us strive for each year.

I vehemently disagree with this, and in fact, it kind of irritates me. There seems to be this "hobbyist snobbery" that says if you're not using a $5000 firing system, poking cakes and using ematches, then you still have a ways to go before you can have a great show--and that's just ridiculous. So for those of you who are already making eyes water with fuses, talons, Chinese systems and hand torches, here's to you!

[Rick_In_Tampa]

As far as safety, a Talon lights a visco fuse, which can have a hang fire. If you don't have 100% control over the discharge area, someone, possibly yourself, could go in there before the cool down period and get hurt with a delayed ignition. Poking and matching in to the lift virtually eliminates this hang fire risk. The match will either pop or not. Having used both Talons and matches, I have found consumer fuse is not as reliable as a match in the lift.On a side note, if your product gets wet, even after it dries out, the lift charge can be altered such that it burns very erratically, ignites slowly like a hang fire and causes low breaks or catos. Neither visco nor a match can fix this! If your product gets wet and dries out, don't put it in a show. I go somewhere by myself where it's wet after a rain, and shoot it to see what happens. You'll be surprised at the various ways these products will malfunction!

I would hope that everyone here would agree that there's no such thing as a 100% guarantee of safety when you're dealing with explosives. We can all come up with scenario's where something could happen. The point I was trying to make was/is, you need to not try and do anything you're not comfortable doing. Safety needs to be the overriding factor.


I vehemently disagree with this, and in fact, it kind of irritates me. There seems to be this "hobbyist snobbery" that says if you're not using a $5000 firing system, poking cakes and using ematches, then you still have a ways to go before you can have a great show--and that's just ridiculous. So for those of you who are already making eyes water with fuses, talons, Chinese systems and hand torches, here's to you!

Hobbyist snobbery? I think you're reading way too much into what I said. I also think it's a pretty well accepted fact that initiators and e-matches give you a level of precision that talons and long fuses can't match. If you are able to achieve parity with initiators and e-matches using talons, then I would suggest that you are in a pretty exclusive club with few members. If your point is that your talon fired show is just as awesome as my initiator fired show, that's a different argument altogether. Now you're talking about perceptions and taste. Purely subjective. Unlike my original point. Suffice it to say, my focus was on the objective fact, not the subjective opinion.

[AxeElf]

Hobbyist snobbery? I think you're reading way too much into what I said. I also think it's a pretty well accepted fact that initiators and e-matches give you a level of precision that talons and long fuses can't match. If you are able to achieve parity with initiators and e-matches using talons, then I would suggest that you are in a pretty exclusive club with few members. If your point is that your talon fired show is just as awesome as my initiator fired show, that's a different argument altogether. Now you're talking about perceptions and taste. Purely subjective. Unlike my original point. Suffice it to say, my focus was on the objective fact, not the subjective opinion.

It may be an objective fact that initiators and e-matches give you a higher level of precision--but when you say things like "without them, you're never going to be able to put on a show that will make people's eyes water," then you're also speaking subjectively, as if a talon-fired show (or even a long-fuse show) can never be more than "just ok." I'm only reminding everyone that it IS a subjective opinion, and not an objective fact, and I object to it being presented as if it were an objective fact, that's all.

I respect the fact that you feel like you are able to put on your best shows with the techniques you have honed over the course of your hobby and/or career. I just ask that you be respectful of others' areas of expertise as well, instead of implying that any show not fired "your way" will always be inferior.

Thank you for your consideration. There's as much magic in the fireworks as there is in the system, (if not more).

[mguerra]

Pyros love to design and pull off a nice show. However, the backyard party audience rarely see fireworks, and almost none of them have ever seen a competition style display, consumer or pro. You could fire off three cakes and a roman candle with a Bic lighter and they would love it. So would most all of us! A beautifully scripted and timed show is what WE aspire to. The audience sees it differently. Now if you do shoot an awesome show with perfect timing they will certainly love that. But if you just get some color and boom in the air in a random fashion, no one from the audience is going to come up to you and comment about what a poor job you did! No, they will just be screaming and clapping and happy. Shoot your show with any technique you like and you will have some VERY happy folks slapping you on the back.

[Greenville Pyro]

This is probably the most accurate thing. All year I've complained that I can't get what I need, what I want etc. The show will be terrible, or whatever catastrophizing I'm doing at the moment. The reality is that no one other than me will even notice. Its about the pretty colors, booms and fun. That's all the audience wants. Its one of the reason I do sky puke. People love it. So here's to 350 cans, 8 cakes, 6 noabs all in 1 minute! Its been a tough year. Lets give our audience some fun, no matter how you do it.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

I respect the fact that you feel like you are able to put on your best shows with the techniques you have honed over the course of your hobby and/or career. I just ask that you be respectful of others' areas of expertise as well, instead of implying that any show not fired "your way" will always be inferior.

Thank you for your consideration. There's as much magic in the fireworks as there is in the system, (if not more).

A key sentence you didn't mention is this one: - "But you're never going to achieve a show close to perfection like the show most of us strive for each year. If you're okay with that; and there's certainly no shame in that!; then stick with the method(s) you deem safer."

I am and always have been respectful of others' and I have a 5 year track record of that on here. The fact that you took exception to my comment does not change that fact. This forum is about giving advice, recommendations, and offering opinions. It's not necessary that anyone agree with any of those things. It also doesn't mean the person offering the advice, recommendation, or opinion had bad intentions when doing so, just because you disagree with what they wrote. So please keep that in mind when reading the threads.

Moving on...

[AxeElf]

I am and always have been respectful of others' and I have a 5 year track record of that on here. The fact that you took exception to my comment does not change that fact. This forum is about giving advice, recommendations, and offering opinions. It's not necessary that anyone agree with any of those things. It also doesn't mean the person offering the advice, recommendation, or opinion had bad intentions when doing so, just because you disagree with what they wrote. So please keep that in mind when reading the threads.

Yes, let me make it clear that I am criticizing an idea, not a person or persons--the idea that a show not fired with ematches and a Cobra will always be inferior to a show fired in a different way. Perhaps my use of the term "hobbyist snobbery" made it seem more personal, but again, I am criticizing that position, not the people who may hold that position.


A key sentence you didn't mention is this one: - "But you're never going to achieve a show close to perfection like the show most of us strive for each year. If you're okay with that; and there's certainly no shame in that!; then stick with the method(s) you deem safer."

That said, this is still that same position, just glossed over by tacking a disclaimer onto it. But even though you SAY, "there's certainly no shame in that!" it is immediately preceded by "But you're never going to achieve a show close to perfection..." and I say, "Says who?"

Definitely do not take it as a personal attack, though. You seem to be an upstanding person who battles many of the same physical issues that I do in putting on a show, we just have different preferred methods of doing so--and I don't think either of us should imply that the other's method is necessarily and a priori inferior, that's all. It IS just an exchange of opinions.