legalese please, pgi shell building

[RisingComet]

To enter the higher competition levels at the pgi, do you need an individual manufacturing license, or does the guild membership cover you? Technically you're professionally displaying your handmade shells/rockets. I've always wondered, never asked.

[J's12talk]

If your manufacturing outside of the convention itself your going to want to have a manufacturing license.

[crackerbomb]

If your manufacturing outside of the convention itself your going to want to have a manufacturing license.

I don't manufacture fireworks but if you get a license to do so. Would you have to have insurance to make fireworks for you own use?

[J's12talk]

I don't manufacture fireworks but if you get a license to do so. Would you have to have insurance to make fireworks for you own use?

To make it no and I think you are suppose to test what you make as part of the permit. If you are going to do a shoot personal or otherwise you need the same insurance as needed for any other shoot in your state. This is just what i've heard don't hold me to it.

[crackerbomb]

thanks for the info

[displayfireworks1]

You do not need a license to make fireworks in United States if you are using the fireworks for your own use. If you have any commercial application, it changes things. It is frequently misunderstood. I am working with Harry from Skylighter and I hope we can clarify some things about making fireworks.

[RisingComet]

Yeah, the grey area of the commercial application is what confused me. The public pays for tickets to the pgi show, the pgi members pay their dues...

Sometimes they'll give a free public show when they start judging levels. Other times, they'll judge after the pyromusical competitions for the night. I was (mal or correcly I don't know...) informed that you can't show your homemade pyrotechnics to an audience without a manufacturers license and insurance. Harry or you should definitely consider putting out a dvd covering this type of legalese. One would think this sort of stuff would be easy to find in the orange book... :/

[Pyro Nation]

You do not need a license to make fireworks in United States if you are using the fireworks for your own use. If you have any commercial application, it changes things. It is frequently misunderstood. I am working with Harry from Skylighter and I hope we can clarify some things about making fireworks.


This is one of the reasons I have never dabbled with it. I was not sure if licensing was needed or not for personal use.

[displayfireworks1]

At RisingComet

To some degree what you are saying may be correct. In some of my earlier videos, I was not really making fireworks but altering consumer fireworks by adding extra mixtures. An “Internet Group” we will call them was quick to report all of this to the ATF. The short story is because the video of me manufacturing fireworks plays on my website and I indirectly profit from that and I need a fireworks manufacturing license. I consulted with an attorney and I was told the ATF is wrong in my case. Problem is, the ATF can be very intimidating, you can fight them but you have to assess your risk tolerance. I am not sure if I have permission to repeat the company name so I will say “Someone in the business” told me he has been in over 30 legal battles with the ATF and various State agencies and won them all.
I am not an attorney however; I would argue someone in the PGI competition would not fall into this category. You are not directly profiting from shooting your fireworks because the PGI is not paying you anything. Many people try to give legal advice incorrectly to the fireworks hobbyist so be careful.
Because of my website I have a few people I can consult that are attorneys or “Expert Witnesses” in the pyrotechnic field. They just wish to remain anonymous to some degree on the forums. Here is some of what I have picked up

The concern with making fireworks.
Once you make fireworks where exactly are you keeping them. Storage of fireworks is always a public safety concern for the ATF.
Making flash salutes the size of M-80’s or larger is always on their hot list. Why, because some people get the idea they are going to start selling them instead of using them for their own personal use.

Here are some cases from the internet I found. Note in most of these they are also selling the fireworks

http://www.newstalkradiowhio.com/news/news/local/police-troy-man-caught-making-illegal-fireworks/nC9Sh/?cxtype=feedbot

I always say do not leave fireworks visable in your car as you drive, if you can help it. If he had an ATF license it would have helped.
http://www.sptimes.com/2003/01/23/Citrus/Man_charged_with_maki.shtml

Here is a slow news day story in Arkansas
http://www.4029tv.com/r/25326678/detail.html

Here is making fireworks and pushing your luck
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/27295524/detail.html


As usual with cases that go to court, they start out one way and may end up another. We may not know the outcome of the above cases.
If you make fireworks just do it for your own personal use. Do not sell homemade fireworks. Be careful with storage.

[pyromaniac]

I always understood that your allowed to manufacture for personal use with no permit, as long as you don't store any pyrotechnic devices or components. Meaning basically you can't make complex devices without a magazine. Your limited to mostly rockets, mines, fountains, gerbs or drivers. Shells would be difficult due to drying times needed for stars and outer paste wraps. I'd imagine you could use "rubber stars" and plastic shells to overcome this hurdle though. I'm also pretty sure that the PGI manufacturing license covers its members at the convention. In the October bulletin of last year, there was an article about transportation of fireworks and components to the convention by non-license/permit holders. What they came up with is that you now can be added as a responsible person(RP) on the PGI ATF License. Of course there are some requirements to qualify for this program. This is a major victory for the PGI and its members. It says in the article that it took many years to reach this agreement with the ATF. Go PGI!!

[J's12talk]

I going to pose a question, wouldn't the state you come from be the determining factor on whether or not you can manufacture fireworks of any kind? Let's just say for example New York where your not even allowed to have a party popper.

[Pyro Nation]

I going to pose a question, wouldn't the state you come from be the determining factor on whether or not you can manufacture fireworks of any kind? Let's just say for example New York where your not even allowed to have a party popper.

Yeah.. because New York state is a party POOPER....

[J's12talk]

Yeah.. because New York state is a party POOPER....

Oh man that was soooooo bad! LOL!

[Chris H]

I unfortunately let my PGI membership lapse last year so I don't have the october bulletin. However, there are no requirements that one must have a permit of any sort to compete in competition. It would be difficult to satisfy the transportation requirements without it however. Large complex shells typically would be out of the realm of what is possible to make on site. Once there and on site you are covered under the PGI license. You can build (within their own guidelines), fire, and purchase fireworks. While there it is possible to purchase things one cannot as a "civilian". If you remove them from the convention, that is on you at that point however and quite frowned upon in certain instances.

A relatively common occurrence is for an unlicensed individual to have a licensed individual transport their devices or components to the convention. At that point, you surrender the control of them over to that person and generally cannot retrieve them. There is a bit of a grey area if you can regain custody of the fireworks once on site as you would then be a licensed individual. That however is not the main hurdle one must get over. Even if you do not officially have custody doesn't mean that you're not going to be going out to the field and loading, matching and setting up your own shells and devices.

In any case it has been determined that competition is not a public display whether or not the public sees it, so commerce is not an issue. If it was, license or not, you would have to transport them under DOT regulations as well as ATF.

If you want an official and real answer I'd suggest asking on the PGI manufacturing or PGI competition mailing lists.

[RisingComet]

Here.
Dave, if it's not okay to link this, please delete this post.
http://www.turbopyro.com/legal-fireworks/

[displayfireworks1]

That link is to one of my advertisers Skylighter. Here is the video that goes along with it. It is about making fireworks

http://www.turbopyro.com/thank-you/?setuser=1199

[pyromaniac]

I going to pose a question, wouldn't the state you come from be the determining factor on whether or not you can manufacture fireworks of any kind? Let's just say for example New York where your not even allowed to have a party popper.
I guess if you planned on manufacturing at your home. Some folks, such as myself live very close to a state that is fireworks friendly or belong to out of state clubs. Some might only make devices at the annual PGI convention. Know the laws and plan accordingly!

[arial-shellz-R-US]

At RisingComet

To some degree what you are saying may be correct. In some of my earlier videos, I was not really making fireworks but altering consumer fireworks by adding extra mixtures. An “Internet Group” we will call them was quick to report all of this to the ATF. The short story is because the video of me manufacturing fireworks plays on my website and I indirectly profit from that and I need a fireworks manufacturing license. I consulted with an attorney and I was told the ATF is wrong in my case. Problem is, the ATF can be very intimidating, you can fight them but you have to assess your risk tolerance. I am not sure if I have permission to repeat the company name so I will say “Someone in the business” told me he has been in over 30 legal battles with the ATF and various State agencies and won them all.
I am not an attorney however; I would argue someone in the PGI competition would not fall into this category. You are not directly profiting from shooting your fireworks because the PGI is not paying you anything. Many people try to give legal advice incorrectly to the fireworks hobbyist so be careful.
Because of my website I have a few people I can consult that are attorneys or “Expert Witnesses” in the pyrotechnic field. They just wish to remain anonymous to some degree on the forums. Here is some of what I have picked up

The concern with making fireworks.
Once you make fireworks where exactly are you keeping them. Storage of fireworks is always a public safety concern for the ATF.
Making flash salutes the size of M-80’s or larger is always on their hot list. Why, because some people get the idea they are going to start selling them instead of using them for their own personal use.

Here are some cases from the internet I found. Note in most of these they are also selling the fireworks

http://www.newstalkradiowhio.com/news/news/local/police-troy-man-caught-making-illegal-fireworks/nC9Sh/?cxtype=feedbot

I always say do not leave fireworks visable in your car as you drive, if you can help it. If he had an ATF license it would have helped.
http://www.sptimes.com/2003/01/23/Citrus/Man_charged_with_maki.shtml

Here is a slow news day story in Arkansas
http://www.4029tv.com/r/25326678/detail.html

Here is making fireworks and pushing your luck
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/27295524/detail.html


As usual with cases that go to court, they start out one way and may end up another. We may not know the outcome of the above cases.
If you make fireworks just do it for your own personal use. Do not sell homemade fireworks. Be careful with storage.

So if lets say I was lighting homemade pyrotechnic salutes say the size of m80s, and the police show up. Am I at any liability even though it was only for personal use?? I understand that disturbing the peace could be a factor. But lets say I was in the middle of nowhere.

[Chris H]

Stand alone ground salutes may be a bit different than most fireworks. They are the one device that gives the hobby of pyrotechnic manufacture the biggest black eye. I've heard they're federally banned, but haven't been able to find something legitimate one way or another. It's not one of those things I'd chance. I've heard you can make them with a license, but I do not believe they're covered under what can be done as an individual by ATF standards being a banned device.

If you actually care about the continuing success and development of the hobby, I suggest finding something better to do than make little bangers. The hobby is so much more rich and fulfilling than that. There is no skill, no artistry in those.