Can I have 1.3 in my car to drive home with a type 54?

[JoeyV.]

Hi all

I have my ATF interview this Monday coming up And have a couple questions. Once I have my type 54 and can buy 1.3 shells do I need a cdl C and hazmat to actually take them home to shoot? If that?s the case do all you guys have the cdl and hazmat?
Thanks!

[displayfireworks1]

Are you planning to be in business or a hobbyists shooting for your own enjoyment.

[JoeyV.]

Hi
For my own enjoyment only.

[PyroJoeNEPA]

You only need a CDL & Hazmat if you are "in commerce" ie--transporting to/from for a contracted [paid] event. Otherwise, you fall under the "hobby" designation.
CDl & Hazmat deal with transportation of explosives and are regulated by DOT--not BATF.

[Arclight]

Federally, "not in commerce" means "not going to make money" (i.e. you're not getting paid or doing something like putting on a demonstration at a trade show). So you can transport your personal stash around in many states.

At the state level, there may be other regulations. The key test is whether you must drive placarded with the material you are transporting.

In California, they require that you placard for any division 1.1, 1,2 or 1.3 material of any weight, regardless of whether it is in commerce or not. You can carry up to 1,000lbs of 1.4 or 1.5 in a vehicle under 10,000lbs GVW here without placarding however.

Once you have a placarding requirement, you have to do all of the other DOT stuff (CDL with hazmat, insurance, DOT/PHMSA permits, planned routes, inspections, drug testing, DOT physical). Up to that point, you can just use a private vehicle.

[JoeyV.]

Thanks all for the clarification!!!

[BMoore]

Just be careful with your interpretation of what "In-Commerce" means. It does not mean running a business and it doesn't mean earning a profit. If someone reimburses you you are in-commerce. If people chip in money for a show you are in-commerce. If you are shooting at a friends party and the friend loans you his truck to haul your product, you are in-commerce. Earn tips? In-Commerce.

I once heard a story of a guy who shot at a friend's party. The friend posted a video on social media. The guy shooting the show commented something along the lines of "You owe me one." Someone in authority saw that post and made the claim that statement put him in-commerce. I'm not sure if that's a true story or not but just illustrates that crossing the line between not-in-commerce to in-commerce might be easier than you think.

[displayfireworks1]

This is why people that try to run a fireworks display business under the radar drive 2 vehicles to the shoot site. You drive the truck with the racks and the wife drives the car to the shoot site that has the products. Would you care to guess why that would be?

[JoeyV.]

Hey
Ya why would the drive 2?
Thanks

[displayfireworks1]

Its a riddle like in that TV show Kung Fu where that young Caine tried to snatch that pebble from the master hand, only he couldn't, because he didn't have enough knowledge yet. You are where that young Caine is now. When you know the answer to that pyro scenario I explained, then you are ready to leave and walk the earth. I mean drive the earth with fireworks in your vehicle.
.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9selPW2lL-M

[JoeyV.]

Ok my best guess is to not draw attention to the car with the product. If the tube truck gets popped it has nothing but plastic tubes.
I think it would be a lot better to just get the cdl c and hazmat than possible get popped if you want to be in the business..

[BMoore]

This is why people that try to run a fireworks display business under the radar drive 2 vehicles to the shoot site. You drive the truck with the racks and the wife drives the car to the shoot site that has the products. Would you care to guess why that would be?

I'm struggling a bit with that scenario. I guess you could say the husband is in-commerce but he isn't transporting product so he doesn't fall under DOT. The wife transporting the product is not in commerce so she isn't under DOT either. However, how is she legally in possession of the product she is transporting? If she is an authorized person under her husband then that puts the product in-commerce. She'd have to buy the product (or he buy it and transfer it to her) under her own license and then she transfers it to the husband upon arrival at the shoot site. Seems like a lot of paperwork to do that legally and it's still sketchy at best.

[displayfireworks1]

Ok my best guess is to not draw attention to the car with the product. If the tube truck gets popped it has nothing but plastic tubes.
I think it would be a lot better to just get the cdl c and hazmat than possible get popped if you want to be in the business..

Grasshopper if you are in the display business you need more than just a CDL to transport explosives . What is it?

[JoeyV.]

I mean insurance, permits, records, cdl With hazmat?? A helper on record, Then employees insurance and a lot lot more?

[displayfireworks1]

I mean insurance, permits, records, cdl With hazmat?? A helper on record, Then employees insurance and a lot lot more?

As a 1.3 fireworks hobbyists, what do you need to need to legallly transport 1.3 in your vehicle .

[lostpup]

Just be careful with your interpretation of what "In-Commerce" means. It does not mean running a business and it doesn't mean earning a profit. If someone reimburses you you are in-commerce. If people chip in money for a show you are in-commerce. If you are shooting at a friends party and the friend loans you his truck to haul your product, you are in-commerce. Earn tips? In-Commerce.

I once heard a story of a guy who shot at a friend's party. The friend posted a video on social media. The guy shooting the show commented something along the lines of "You owe me one." Someone in authority saw that post and made the claim that statement put him in-commerce. I'm not sure if that's a true story or not but just illustrates that crossing the line between not-in-commerce to in-commerce might be easier than you think.

Can someone explain how borrowing a truck cause mine is a POS or broke down makes it in commerce?

[BMoore]

Can someone explain how borrowing a truck cause mine is a POS or broke down makes it in commerce?
If you are not in commerce you can’t be compensated. So if you are shooting at a friends party and you borrow that friend’s truck that is a form of payment. He is providing your transportation equipment for the show. Simply borrowing a truck from someone is not an issue but it has to be what they would call an arm length’s transaction.

[displayfireworks1]

I spend a great deal of time clearing up misconceptions about the ATF Fireworks license and hobbyist. I wish I could find the letter the PGI posted in one of their bulletins years back from the then ATF Acting Director Gary Bangs sent to the PGI in regard to being in business and employee possessor forms. At the time, I always liked how a man with the last name Bangs was the acting director of the ATF at that time. I thought it so proper. The term is called an Aptronym and/or Nominative Determinism where you name sort of fits your job. Incidental there is never a "Director" of the ATF. There is only an "Acting Director" I use to know the rationale behind that but now it eludes me. I believe it had something to do with the NRA. In the mid 2000's around 2005 the ATF went with some of what is mentioned in these post. My Inspector at the time thought that because I gave my sportsman club fireworks helpers food and beer it was a form of payment and they should be listed on my license as employee possessor. He only told me that because he called his supervisor from my house during my interview and ask her what to do. Then 3 years later during my renewal I saw the letter that ATF Acting Director Gary Bangs (love that name) sent to the PGI outlining exactly what an employee possessor is. An employee is more than a sandwich and beer. The Inspector told me not to list my helpers as employee possessors.
The ATF is not the sophisticated organization they are perceived to be. They go from one "Acting Director" to another. Their own Inspectors will tell you , they constantly change what they tell them is correct or incorrect all the time. In short being in the fireworks display business is more than a sandwich and beer or borrowing a truck from someone. The easiest way to find the answer is not to follow the sandwich,beer and truck. It is to follow the flow of money used to shoot the display. I could explain that in more detail but I hope you get the drift of this.

[JoeyV.]

I get the drift 100%. Thank you for what you do for this hobby and industry!!!!!!

[displayfireworks1]

I get the drift 100%. Thank you for what you do for this hobby and industry!!!!!!

Its not really time for you to graduate but I'm going to give it to you anyway.
.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSAO5OBEoqs

[BMoore]

Well the ATF should have better things to do than going after someone for eating a hotdog before a shoot or figuring out who loaned who a truck. I do think it’s good to think through these things though. It keep us honest. When trying to stay legal it never hurts to think like an attorney.

[lostpup]

If you are not in commerce you can?t be compensated. So if you are shooting at a friends party and you borrow that friend?s truck that is a form of payment. He is providing your transportation equipment for the show. Simply borrowing a truck from someone is not an issue but it has to be what they would call an arm length?s transaction.


Thank you, that makes relevant sense. Being as it could be construed as payment.

[displayfireworks1]

Thank you, that makes relevant sense. Being as it could be construed as payment.

You can explain it and they still will not believe it. Wish I could find that ATF Gary Bangs letter to the PGI from years back.

[lostpup]

You can explain it and they still will not believe it. Wish I could find that ATF Gary Bangs letter to the PGI from years back.


It made the point to think thru it further for me. As we just shoot our personal show. But as it grows if donations come in it could change it to commerce is something I did not consider or think about.

[BMoore]

It made the point to think thru it further for me. As we just shoot our personal show. But as it grows if donations come in it could change it to commerce is something I did not consider or think about.

That's really the key. Always think about what you are doing so you don't get tangled up in an innocent mistake. I have people every year offering to pay me to shoot a birthday party or offering to chip in on next year's show which I decline. This is definitely a hobby that could cross the line into a business fairly easy. Nothing wrong with that as long as you keep it legal.

[JoeyV.]

I had my ATF interview today and passed all checks. I asked specifically can I have 1.3 in my car and he said “absolutely as long as you are not “in the business “. If you are being paid to shoot fireworks you have to have DOT, CDL, hazmat. BMoore and Dave are exactly correct! Don’t except money when shooting fireworks unless you are “in the biz”..