Can you shoot 1.3 on private property?

[Jbcole]

I am in the process of getting ATF 54. My question is can I shoot 1.3 on private property (in Michigan) without a permit? Maybe a better way to put it is... will I have to prove to ATF that I had a permit to shoot whatever I shoot?
Thanks-Jeff

[displayfireworks1]

Did you purchase my ATF DVD package? I discuss some of those issue. If not buy it here.
.
http://www.pyrotalk.com/shopping.php

[Jbcole]

Did you purchase my ATF DVD package? I discuss some of those issue. If not buy it here.
.
http://www.pyrotalk.com/shopping.php

Yes I did. It wasn’t clear if I needed to prove to the ATF where I shot the fireworks and if I need a copy of the permit etc

[Scotty Rockets]

Short answer yes on a permit and yes you do need to show ATF some kind of proof.

[Jbcole]

Short answer yes on a permit and yes you do need to show ATF some kind of proof.

Thank you. So I need a local permit from the Fire Marshall etc, to shoot on my own property in order to show documentation to ATF that matches the date I picked up my 1.3 stuff from the seller?

[Crush630]

Fed's can not enforce state laws just an fyi.

[displayfireworks1]

I wish members would let me answer the ATF license questions. I spend a great deal of time clearing up misconceptions. The part about needing a fireworks permit to shoot fireworks in a state that already is legal is up to debate. Of course it depends on the property size and type of product used etc. Adding a few 1.3 Thunder Kings to a consumer fireworks display does not change too much. Now if you shoot 50 six inch shells things start looking different. As far as showing the ATF permits, lets put it this way, most of the time they could care less about it. However, if they start asking you questions about it , my guess is you are starting to behave suspiciously. As a matter of fact, I'm suspicious about you because you even ask that question.

[215less]

I wish members would let me answer the ATF license questions. I spend a great deal of time clearing up misconceptions. The part about needing a fireworks permit to shoot fireworks in a state that already is legal is up to debate. Of course it depends on the property size and type of product used etc. Adding a few 1.3 Thunder Kings to a consumer fireworks display does not change too much. Now if you shoot 50 six inch shells things start looking different. As far as showing the ATF permits, lets put it this way, most of the time they could care less about it. However, if they start asking you questions about it , my guess is you are starting to behave suspiciously. As a matter of fact, I'm suspicious about you because you even ask that question.

Well, we know his name is Jeff from Michigan. Its a start LOL!

[Crush630]

lol:D:D:D:D

[Jbcole]

Guys,
I apologize if I asked a question that was sensitive or if I offended anyone. I had no intention of that. I am a pyro enthusiast that wants to spice up my small 4th of July personal show on private property. I am no suspicious criminal.
I bought Dave?s dvds to start the process of a type 54 for the above reason. After watching them and researching online, I was not clear about the required reporting at the ATF renewal. I thought someone on here, from Michigan, might be able to point me in the right direction as to weather I need a local permit to satisfy my reporting at renewal, and if so, how to go about obtaining one. No other motive.

[displayfireworks1]

Sorry to come at you like that. Many of us operate at different levels of radar detection. People that try to stop us will tell you all sorts of things. My usual advice is to concentrate on getting the ATF license first. I never hear someone say I have my own ATF license, now what do I do. Get the license and the rest starts to flow.

[Jbcole]

Sorry to come at you like that. Many of us operate at different levels of radar detection. People that try to stop us will tell you all sorts of things. My usual advice is to concentrate on getting the ATF license first. I never hear someone say I have my own ATF license, now what do I do. Get the license and the rest starts to flow.
I understand. It’s all good. I will continue forward on the ATF 54 and ask related questions via private message if I get stuck on some thing.

[215less]

Guys,
I apologize if I asked a question that was sensitive or if I offended anyone. I had no intention of that. I am a pyro enthusiast that wants to spice up my small 4th of July personal show on private property. I am no suspicious criminal.
I bought Dave?s dvds to start the process of a type 54 for the above reason. After watching them and researching online, I was not clear about the required reporting at the ATF renewal. I thought someone on here, from Michigan, might be able to point me in the right direction as to weather I need a local permit to satisfy my reporting at renewal, and if so, how to go about obtaining one. No other motive.

Naw dude, im sorry, i didn't mean to come off as a smart ass. Hey, were all here because we all love 1 thing. I like you am an enthusiast who is in the process of getting a type 54 myself. Dave is right though. Fill out that app and all your answers are in that DVD. Any other questions you can find in a simple search on this forum.

Best of luck.

[AquaticPyro]

You need a permit anytime 1.3G goes off regardless of its location. You usually apply with the county fire department which sometimes inspects the site at their discretion. The rules they used are the one defined by the ATF since it is regulated product. They are just there to make sure to are following the ATF guidelines which is part of your agreement with the ATF to be granted the permit. You need no permit for 1.4G products.

[Salutecake]

You need a permit anytime 1.3G goes off regardless of its location. You usually apply with the county fire department which sometimes inspects the site at their discretion. The rules they used are the one defined by the ATF since it is regulated product. They are just there to make sure to are following the ATF guidelines which is part of your agreement with the ATF to be granted the permit. You need no permit for 1.4G products.

I'm not quite sure what your saying is correct. Most of the permits and requirements are going to be regulated by your State and local laws. Please any one step in, but I don't think the ATF laws say anything about having a "permit" to shoot off 1.3. You need a license or permit to buy, transport, sell, manufacture and so on, but no separate permit to shoot them off. Again that comes about through your State and Local Government. Another point, your Local or State fire person or AHJ (authority having jurisdiction) is most likely going to follow the guideline written in the NFPA (National Fire Protection Agency) 1123 Code for Fireworks Display. I'm not sure where all the rules and guidelines your talking about originate. but throughout the ATF Federal Explosive Law and Regulations book, there are many references written for you to check with your State or local government, and also charts and tables referenced back to the NFPA.

Dave I would like to here from you, but my take on a lot of the laws that are quoted here in this forum, are for individual State or Local laws that the ATF does not regulate or have laws for(?) And every state and local government are different, and you can't say that that because you are in FL that those rules apply to some one in NY. Every State and local government seems to have their own rules which maybe similar to other States, but your State rules do not apply in my State but the Federal rules are rules that everyone must follow, up until your State or Other States put additional conditions and laws for you to follow.

[Scotty Rockets]

An ATF license only gives you the license for procession and nothing more. If you ever become audited by the ATF you’ll want those records on how the 1.3 was used or disposed of. True the state and local regulations have to do with the actual permitting of the display, and every state is different so look up your own states laws. Will you get away with shooting smaller B items, probably and likely, but add 4” and above and things could get real interesting...

[Scotty Rockets]

Addition... not just 1.3 but any federal regulated explosive material.

[Arclight]

Like a lot of things, what you need a permit for is subject to some interpretation. In some cases, the state or county has a law that clearly states you need to obtain a permit just to keep a magazine with product. California has this for instance, and explosives vendors expect a copy of your county permit before they will sell to you.

In other cases, it's not black-and-white, and what regulations apply are different if you are doing it in a public space, commercially for hire, etc. You can do a lot of things to your own property as an "owner-builder" that you couldn't get away with otherwise.

My experience with the ATF is that you don't need to tell them the name and address of all of your customers or work locations, but they do expect you to document whenever you use or dispose of product. If you have permits with a day/time/location on them, then that is great but I don't believe it is a hard requirement versus just a signed statement or log book entry stating the list of products used and date/time.

[PyroGyro]

As others have said the 54 will allow you to possess but it is not a permit to shoot. Personally, before I went forward with getting a 54, I would find out what else you would need to do to shoot 1.3 on your private property. Up in my neck of the woods shooting 1.3 is a pain. You need a permit, insurance, AND fire dept presence at the shoot. And yes, even for private property and a private show.

[PAClark]

Guys,
I apologize if I asked a question that was sensitive or if I offended anyone. I had no intention of that. I am a pyro enthusiast that wants to spice up my small 4th of July personal show on private property. I am no suspicious criminal.
I bought Dave?s dvds to start the process of a type 54 for the above reason. After watching them and researching online, I was not clear about the required reporting at the ATF renewal. I thought someone on here, from Michigan, might be able to point me in the right direction as to weather I need a local permit to satisfy my reporting at renewal, and if so, how to go about obtaining one. No other motive.

Jbcole, it would depend on the size of your property indeed and if you are in city limits etc. I was also pressed by the ATF about permits and a shooters license that they said was absolutely required. However, in the end they and the state fire marshal were ensured I do not put on "displays" I am a fireworks enthusiast and shoot the fireworks for me and my family and wanted to spice up my July 4th fireworks (just like you), therefore I obtained the 54 and use the 1.3g for my private use. I live in the county (outside city limits) and in the middle of 20 acres though. If you live in city limits and on a 2 acre lot, that may indeed change your requirements depending on if you are shooting, like Dave said.. multiple 6" shells an such may change the game.

[Arclight]

Based on my experience in the last year, here are the things I think ATF can require:

1. Background check, photograph, fingerprints, properly filled-out application, a valid mailing address and phone number, check, interview.
2. Supporting documents that match your application details, such as a business license or incorporation papers (if you applied in the name of a company), etc.
3. Proof of "safe storage" in the form of a contingency letter or a magazine at the "premises location" on your permit. They can and will verify letters and will inspect your magazine. They will also want an aerial photograph and/or diagram showing the distance from your magazine to the nearest neighbor, public road, other magazine, etc. They will make sure you have 2 protected locks with 3/8" shackles and 5 or more tumblers. They will make sure that it appears to be made to ATF standards (i.e. non-sparking liner for all magazines, 1/4" steel with 2" or more of real hardwood for a type 2). If the magazine property is rented or leased, they will want to see a lease that shows the landlord knows what you are doing.
4. A statement that you contacted the local fire authority. Usually, they want a name/phone number of who you spoke to.
5. During the interview, they can ask you questions to see if you are "familiar" with state and local laws. They may or may not be well-versed in these laws themselves.

I don't believe they can deny your application based on local laws, unless you tell them that you intend to use your license to assist in doing something illegal. As long as you can do one of two things, you should be good to go:

A. State at least one legal use, such as "participate in professional fireworks events out-of-state" or "build fireworks for club shoots using regulated materials."
B. Show that you are on a path to comply with applicable laws. For instance, I needed a County permit, so I told them that the County wants ATF clearance before I can apply, If you are scheduled to take a test or some type of required training to get the other licenses, tell them that.