Flame Machines

[Mudballs]

Just curious on flame machines. How many people use these in a firework show? What are the better flame machines to buy? Where is best place to buy them? Are they a good effect to add to a show? How far away from audience they need to be? Just looking for more info on these so if you have any info, please share.

[esgrillo]

Mudballs -

I use them. You can see them in the beginning of my show this year and throughout in different sections.

I have some pretty cheap chinese units. I like them especially for the intro of my show before the fireworks get real active. They will get overwhelmed by fireworks when the fireworks are going heavily. You will need a DMX system of some sort to operate them.

My audience is about 75ft from them

[esgrillo]

Here is a screenshot from the video

http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=5194&stc=1

[Mudballs]

That is cool. What kind of machines you have? You mentioned dmx system. Will a cobra control them? Or would I need more than just that? How far away from actual fireworks do you place them?

[esgrillo]

I use moka duel flame units now. Cobra can initiate the DMX script that is all. It can't control anything, that is done with the DMX software. The cobra audio box has a split .mp3 loaded with timecode on one channel and music on the other. The timecode is fed to a midi converter and then to the DMX software running on my laptop It is a very complicated set-up and very expensive. Honestly not sure if I would recommend it unless you have some money to burn and are half nuts like me and dont mind learning a new software, programming language, and spending a lot of time on it.

It did work pretty well for me this year but I honestly don't know anyone else in the country using the cobra in this manner... had to figure out most of it myself the hard way lol. I did get a lot of conceptual help initially from a cobra forum guy. Marc Brummer

Here's the video of me testing last year. It shows the hardware. .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcPjSA2VFHk&t=109s

[Mudballs]

Ah. The flames still need a controller. Not sure why I was thinking cobra would just send a signal to fire the flames. Setting up scenes and chases can be time consuming. Can't imagine how long that took you. Nice job!

[WithReport]

@mudballs,

Here is my flame machine dump.....

5195

I' have used DMX flames a few times. I have Cobra and fireTEK systems, but the fireTEK can directly control DMX. This year our 4th of July show had a few heavy DMX flame segments and I think it turned out really good. The flame machines are all ebay machines. Just search "DMX Flame Machine" and you'll find all kinds of options. It turns out some of mine are 1 Channel and some are 2 Channel devices (They were all advertised as 2 channel) - you get what you pay for. I did all the scripting for the show (pyro and DMX) in PyroIgnitionControl - free.

I just posted the show on a stand alone post, but here is the link again - it opens with a flame countdown, the 1st segment uses flames and the 4th Segment uses quite a bit (middle of show hoping some of the smoke clears a bit).
In this show they are 50 ft from the audience and spaced 10 ft apart from each other:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6znkkiYg4b8


Here is a quick video I did just "dry" testing them for this years show with timecode fed directly to the fireTEK module so I could jump around in the 20min script. I should point out the one in the middle with the yellow sticker is the newest one and it has an issue with it's DMX output, which affected everything else downstream in the universe (DMX term). I ended up using that unit at the end of the cable run and it worked fine (again, you get what you pay for, but I'll try to get that output fixed soon)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h906p7R71ms


If you are not familiar with DMX, I have a basic video that gives some VERY basic help to get started. It is focused on fireTEK, but using a board to figure out a DMX device is just basic for anything. There is lots of online resources for sorting out DMX.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wApvV9td6rQ


In my opinion, the flame machines are worth it, if used sparingly. Fireworks should still reign! However, they are definitively cheaper in the long run and can provide some pause to heavy fireworks to let smoke clear.


I have another video where I walk through more of the setup and it is just a DMX show in the backyard for our soccer team campout. You will notice the downside can be all the cables and power supply. The video was recently blocked due to copyright issues. I've allowed Youtube to mute the music, but it might still show up as Blocked for a while:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCTyhcp6pqw


There is also a video on my channel showing the fireTEK FTH-48Fx module being used as a DMX sequencer for my 18M - which works. I think the limit is 1200 lines of DMX on the FTH-48Fx, but each module can be it's own universe - And that is plenty forl DMX flames.


Better flame machines would be Galaxis, Mokasfx, Spark Fabrica and probably some others, but the prices are significantly different.

Hope that helps.

[Scotty Rockets]

I have 4 units (spray the fire) I bought of eBay for around $60 per unit. I have not done much with them other than testing. I’m also a fireTEK system user as well and have 4 of the modules with DMX. Scripting is rather simple once you find the correct values. Because the Chinese units don’t have a manual or one you can understand, I recommend a cheap DMX board from amazon so you can find the values. They work great for what they are, and it’s pretty cool having your firing system run DMX and pyro scripts at the same time.

[esgrillo]

Withreport understand that firetek can handle and on off of a flame machine (have something to mention about that as well) but there is no way it can handle a DMX operation of a moving head light for example. There are 19 channels just for my moving heads and over 20 for my laser.

The built in feature for firetek is good for a limited scope (which may meet muds needs now) but it is limited by design.

Also keep in mind the new moka models now have 2 channels for the flame units. One is a safety circuit channel that is required to be "on" before the flame initiation channel. My guess is firetek can still handle that because they are both on off but even the basic flame units DMX programming is getting more complex. My Cobra set up is universal and will allow synching of unlimited DMX devices regardless of their complexity. Admittedly it is a mix of add-on equipment but it was all recommended by a cobra user/DMX expert.

Pretty cool stuff though! I like it and the engineer in me always knows there are multiple ways to get to the same answer and yours is a great option.

[esgrillo]

I have 4 units (spray the fire) I bought of eBay for around $60 per unit. I have not done much with them other than testing. I’m also a fireTEK system user as well and have 4 of the modules with DMX. Scripting is rather simple once you find the correct values. Because the Chinese units don’t have a manual or one you can understand, I recommend a cheap DMX board from amazon so you can find the values. They work great for what they are, and it’s pretty cool having your firing system run DMX and pyro scripts at the same time.

all I can say is amen to your instruction comment on those Chinese units... good lord you certainly on your own with those things lmao

[topshelfpyro]

all I can say is amen to your instruction comment on those Chinese units... good lord you certainly on your own with those things lmao

What did those moka units run you? How do they compare to something like a G-Flame?

[esgrillo]

I got these.... https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32957391039.html?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.35.5eb0 2055SxqVmG

About $175

[topshelfpyro]

I got these.... https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32957391039.html?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.35.5eb0 2055SxqVmG

About $175

Oh significantly less than a G-Flame lol. Do you feel they perform alot better than the ebay things?

[esgrillo]

Oh significantly less than a G-Flame lol. Do you feel they perform alot better than the ebay things?

yeah kinda... they are not perfect. This one has 2 can/2 igniters so it was pretty reliable.

One got delivered with a bad valve I had to replace. Also some of the older units have silicon gaskets in the nozzle where the fuel can (starter fluid) injects liquid an leak like crazy after 1 or 2 uses. This one has nitrile which so far has been leak free so far after several uses

Instructions are in chinglish and suck so you will be on your own or can ask someone that has one already if you are lucky.

This particular company Moka has been dicking around with me with some replacement parts so I am not happy about that right now but overall not too bad.

[topshelfpyro]

yeah kinda... they are not perfect. This one has 2 can/2 igniters so it was pretty reliable.

One got delivered with a bad valve I had to replace. Also some of the older units have silicon gaskets in the nozzle where the fuel can (starter fluid) injects liquid an leak like crazy after 1 or 2 uses. This one has nitrile which so far has been leak free so far after several uses

Instructions are in chinglish and suck so you will be on your own or can ask someone that has one already if you are lucky.

This particular company Moka has been dicking around with me with some replacement parts so I am not happy about that right now but overall not too bad.

Thanks for the info!

[Scotty Rockets]

The owner of fireTEK has stated that the DMX on the fireTEKs were intended for equipment such as cryo and flame machines. I agree the moving head lasers are way to complex to script in csv. The simple DMX equipment is easily scripted and convenient on fireTEK.

[WithReport]

Without question moving heads or other multi-channel DMX devices or movements with lots of integration can soak up channels and capability quickly.

I've seen other approaches where people just trigger (manually or with a pulse from their firing system) a simple DMX player at the start and hope they don't drift. Ed's approach with TC out of the audiobox and eventually to a computer DMX controller is an impressive integration.

My fireTEK modules will do 1200 lines of separate DMX script, no claim of it being equivalent to a computer with DMX software - two completely different setups.

But with 1200 lines (fireTEK script also includes duration for DMX) I figured I could easily run 2 channel DMX flame machines without extra equipment. I don't think that is limited if you are adding flames to a pyrotechnic show. I think adding flames and foggers was the main intent of the design when the FTH-48Fx came out a number of years ago (I think it was also the first fireworks firing systems with DMX). I think Mongoose is getting DMX, and F1 recently introduced it, but not many other firing system options with integrated DMX for flames.

So I had 1 and 2 channel devices in the Set Me On Fire show I posted run by one of my fireTEK modules. The script included only 280 lines of DMX so plenty more capability still available. As for the flame show with the soccer team, I actually scripted that with 2 channels for each of the 4 machines (Flame Machines were Set at CH 8, 10, 12, & 14 - if I remember) and the seven channel par lights (both on CH1) - some of the cheap flame machines just ignored the safety channel. I think there were around 600 lines, but it didn't use duration - everything was scripted as "on" and "off". I didn't understand how to use duration then.

Each of my fireTEK modules could have controlled a separate "universe", so I could have had the the DMX devices in isolated locations rather than cabling everything to one DMX controller. The separate universes can also allow a more aggressive DMX approach than what I have. Here is a test done and posted recently by Pirotecnica, this was run by 5 fireTEK modules. When it goes dark you can see the FTH-48Fx screens flashing. I'll admit it is a relatively short segment and I don't know how much of the 1200 lines were used, but it was well done with moving heads, lights, and flames. I questioned if some of the motions were pre-programmed in the moving heads when I saw this, but they said it was all driven by the fireTEK modules (I couldn't get the video from FB to show up embedded - sorry).


https://www.facebook.com/PirotecniaMs/videos/1154332784932708/

Oh, the fireTEK remote can generate a timecode output. This would work similar to the audiobox setup without having to create a timecode script or use up one of the audio channels on a separate audio player. I've personally not done this with DMX, but walked through a pre-show check and test with fireTEK controlling the show - the fireTEK remote networked with ~ 50 FTH-48Fx modules and fed timecode to F1 controlling a bunch of F1 modules and the audio was provided by FTKontrol app/player on an android connected to the remote.

Theoretically with timecode, regardless of how you set it up, one could simultaneously drive ALL types of other systems. Oh, I've gone off on the timecode bunny trail (sorry), so back to the subject of flame machines....


...As for the cheap ebay machines. I have 6 of them (one is still in the box) and have only had two problems. 1) the problem mentioned above with the new one and 2) I pushed s DMX pin in which was easily fixed. So for the $50-70 cost I think I've got my moneys worth out of them. Other peoples mileage may vary.

I appreciate the comments about moka flames. I had given them some thought. They seemed like the logical step up from what I have.

[WithReport]

Instructions are in chinglish and suck so you will be on your own or can ask someone that has one already if you are lucky.

lol, I had one set of instructions that made no sense at all. In one section it was talking about "a grain of rice." As much as I tried, I couldn't figure out what it was referring to.

I should have previously mentioned the issue with removing the starer fluid cans. This is by far my biggest annoyance. As much as I've tried, I"m unable to remove a partially used can without getting fluid all over.

Anyone have any good ideas for this.

[Mudballs]

Thank you for all the info. Way more than I expected. Being I have a cobra system, this might just have to go on the back burner for now, but now I know the means of doing it. Maybe when I go to do it cobra will have a better solution for it. Thanks!

[esgrillo]

Thank you for all the info. Way more than I expected. Being I have a cobra system, this might just have to go on the back burner for now, but now I know the means of doing it. Maybe when I go to do it cobra will have a better solution for it. Thanks!

No problem. I inquired with Scott at length about DMX at length before I went the direction I did. He indicated that it was something they were not actively working on and this was 2yrs ago. It may never happen within cobra which give the other systems that can an advantage.

Some of their new product development takes a long long time. Hell we've been waiting for a lipo audiobox for years.

[specialfxpyro]

Compressed air fed lycopodium flame unit we used at an Avenged 7 fold concert

5276

[Crush630]

IL is pretty strict on fireworks and flame machines. especially indoor/outdoor events

[specialfxpyro]

Sigma's Firefly flame system


5277

[josbor01]

So I know this is an older thread, but felt was probably best not to start a new one on this topic; so I have a flame projector that connects to LPG- I am currently using a standard (USA) BBQ grill tank. I have an adjustable regulator (max 30psi)w/ gauge attached; my issue is that after the flame is triggered the psi gauge goes to zero (0) - I am guessing that the safety value "sees" this as a leak when trying to fill the accumulator tank back up. What are the options used here? I am NOT wanting/asking to by-pass the safety valve, just need to know what type of tank or special kind of valve to look for - or what to ask my local propane dealer for.
I have tried adjusting the regulator @ 5,10,20, & 30 psi - and all seem to trigger the safety.

[specialfxpyro]

So I know this is an older thread, but felt was probably best not to start a new one on this topic; so I have a flame projector that connects to LPG- I am currently using a standard (USA) BBQ grill tank. I have an adjustable regulator (max 30psi)w/ gauge attached; my issue is that after the flame is triggered the psi gauge goes to zero (0) - I am guessing that the safety value "sees" this as a leak when trying to fill the accumulator tank back up. What are the options used here? I am NOT wanting/asking to by-pass the safety valve, just need to know what type of tank or special kind of valve to look for - or what to ask my local propane dealer for.
I have tried adjusting the regulator @ 5,10,20, & 30 psi - and all seem to trigger the safety.

Are you feeding an accumulator tank with the propane tank or feeding the flame unit directly with the propane tank?

How big is the hose/pipe that feeds the flame unit?

Example: Sigma's firefly units have a 1" hose that feeds the flame unit as well as 1/4" propane line that feeds the pilot flame.
https://www.sigmaservices.com/flame-unit-accessories.




My guess is that you are not using a proper regulator. I'm not sure what type of regulator you are using that only goes up to 30 psi and has a "safety valve". We have 2 different types of regulators we use to fill propane units. 1 with an emergency shut off valve electrically controlled by an E-Stop button on the controller and 1 without emergency shut off valve.

My regulator will allow me to put 90 psi in to the accumulator tank, regulator gauge itself goes up to 120 psi.

Propane tanks will freeze if gas is released to quickly. When I fill my accumulators the propane tanks is sitting in a warm water bath to prevent freezing. Even then I still fill somewhat slowly to prevent freezing.

Propane comes in liquid form and expands in to a gas within the tank. So the smaller that tank and the more full the tank is, the less space within the tank for the gas to form. Unless you know for sure that your regulator has an automatic emergency shut off valve I suspect you are freezing up the propane tank and that's why your regulator reads 0 and the gas stops.

The whole reason to use accumulator tanks is to store the propane in a gas form vs. liquid form in the BBQ tank. Which is the only way you can release a sizable or sustained propane flame from a propane flame unit.

If I fill my accumulators at room temp. from a BBQ tank it could take 10 minutes or more. If I use a warm water bath I can fill one in about a minute.

I can fill an accumulator tank which is roughly twice the size of BBQ tank, 12 times @ 75 psi with a standard BBQ tank.

Hope that helps