Articles of Pyrotechnic discussion at APA

[displayfireworks1]

Word I am receiving is, the topic of Articles of Pyrotechnic product sales and usage is up for discussion at the APA convention in February 2020.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA0HBVri8WM

[Robbro097]

Im buying some AP (thanks dave) almost everything im buying this year will b ap i really hope they dont screw over the average joe with a cobra just trying to have some good safe fun a few times a year like myself.

[displayfireworks1]

If retailers and distributors only sell these to people that have some level of training there should not be an issue. My sources are telling me two things are occurring that are causing an issue right now. One is the ATF is upset some of these products are being sold to people that have no knowledge of the product. The other issue is people in the display business are upset some advanced users of fireworks and these products are becoming very good at what they are doing and are trying to do for profit displays. The ones that are attempting for profit displays are not following the established rules and regulations and operating under the radar.
If we could fast forward 20 years from now the entire backyard fireworks scene is going to look different and so will features on the Consumer Fireworks products and categories. More and more states are going legal and advanced fireworks equipment is more and more affordable. The display business wants everything to go backwards not forward. They want illegal states where they are the only ones shooting fireworks and selling displays. They want exclusive access to 1.3 and AP product. They only want expensive fireworks firing systems beyond the reach of regular consumers. They are fighting to go in one direction and we are fighting to go in the other. Only they have the APA to fight for them. We have no one. The one thing in our favor is I see more and more of these APA companies coming out with their own line of Articles of Pyrotechnic products and so called "Pro Products". Who are they selling to with catalogs and pretty pictures? They will eventually put pressure on the APA to come out with something to address it. The one thing in our favor is , if they try to turn it over to the ATF to classify as a 1.3 product , it will kill sales and strap them with the burden of storage and documentation that goes with a 1.3 product.
In my opinion the NFA made essentially no decision on this AP classification. Now that I heard the APA is taking a serious look at it. I waiting to see what they come out with.

[jknepp1954]

one of the problems is the APA 87-1 is so riidiculously out dated! 2001 was updated - at that time we didn't even have 500 gr cakes and ftn let alone Article of Pyrotechnics! To make them as a 1.3 is ridiculous! and ludicrous!
Instead they need to make amendments to 87-1 - do specs for the 500 gr as they should have YEARS ago, and then also make AP consumer, but pro use only - and state that in such a way as "make sure you don't have on retail shelf for general comsumer consumption."
We don't sell currently other than the tannerite products, but have played around with the idea of selling some Dom Pro stuff of SO76 PRO.
Kind of surprised that NFA didn't take a stance on this.

[captainpryo]

One of the big reason is all the OL product that is being brought into the country under UN0431 then being sold at stores and in tents to the normal consumer, and it is still labeled UN0431 articles of pyrotechnics on the product. The government is not stupid, especially when you can go on social media and see companies posting on their facebook pages these items close up and you can read the UN0431 articles of pyrotechnics label on the item. Like Joyce said it is ridiculous and ludicrous to make it 1.3, but when a company brings all this OL product into the country with salutes in it and is abusing the UN0431 designation , the government gets involved and we all suffer. Think about it, the APA board members are comprised of some of the biggest retail companies in this country and if hurts their business they want to get involved and make it illegal, just like the metals in break charges.

[Birdman]

If safety is the main concern I don't know how taking e-firing capabilities out of reach for the masses will help. Seems to me they should be trying to encourage e-firing. As Dave mentioned in his video, one thing lacking is verifiable standardized certifications.

Are display companies really interested in doing small affordable shows? It seems to me the market is filling a void left by the display companies that don't want to be bothered unless your talking about a show cost that is out of reach for the average person or organization. If this is such a threat to the display companies they should see this as an emerging market and talent pool they can take advantage of. Do the powers that be in the pyro industry want to cling to a protectionist business model that prevents the expansion of the industry or do they want to expand the industry and bring pyrotechnic shows to the masses? I just don't see how the display companies put the toothpaste back in the tube. If I owned a display company I would be working on a way to leverage this talent pool and technology with the talent and business relationships I already have in order to expand my business beyond just big 1.3 shows. I would be building relationships with event venues like wedding halls and with the production companies that are already working with them to offer DJ and photography services for events. Why not take advantage of the easy of storage and transport of 1.4 and AP's and the pool of talent becoming available? If you are afraid they are going to beat you it only makes sense to join them.

Maybe I'm off base. I'm just starting to learn about the politics of this industry but figured I'd throw out my 2 cents.

[Jay_]

At some point i believe that there will have to be some type of licence or permit needed to buy the product. If that does not happen it will totally become the wild west and people will be burning their faces off lighting 76mm mines with cigarettes and such to the point that they become a 1.3 only product.

Id gladly pay to go to training, take a test...whatever is required if it comes to that.

i just dont want the product to change, nor to see them go 1.3. The convenience of the 1.4 designation has so many advantages.

[RalphieJ]

There are numerous small, long-established display companies that derive a fair portion of their revenue from small, affordable shows. Two are within just a few miles from my home. They operate very quietly with little fanfare, and neither sells any of their product; they are strictly operators. And, they are fiercely competitive. I can say with a high level of confidence that if any backyard hobbyist gets to thinking they can undercut either of these companies and steal away any of their shows, no matter how small, they are in for a rude awakening. And if that means campaigning for AP to be reclassified to 1.3, you will see that happen when push comes to shove.

[displayfireworks1]

I am adding Tannerite Explosives to the list of fireworks distributors accepting my Continuing Education program for Articles of Pyrotechnics. I welcome inquiring from other distributors selling AP products. The industry needs to move forward on this.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocK7uW0m1_Y&t=8s

[Robbro097]

This is awesome news dave thanks

[Birdman]

There are numerous small, long-established display companies that derive a fair portion of their revenue from small, affordable shows.

I'm curious what a small affordable show is to them?

Excellent news on adding Tannerite Dave! Good for you, good for them and good for those of us that have or intend to take your AP course.

[RalphieJ]

[QUOTE=Birdman;63572]I'm curious what a small affordable show is to them?

Weddings, high school and college homecomings, birthday parties, weekly minor-league baseball, typically 15-20-25 minute shows.

[jamisonlm3]

Here, a 20-25 mintue show is a big show. You're getting into 4th of July size at that point. Other shows shot here are much shorter. They're usually around 7-8 mintues. I've seen some that are even much shorter.

[Birdman]

I doubt anything in the 15-25 minute range would be an affordable show for most people. When I think small affordable shows I'm thinking 2-5 minute shows or even a quick barrage in the $500-$1500 price range. Maybe I can explain where my thinking is coming from.

I was approached by someone in my family that is in the wedding and event services business. After seeing a couple of the small shows I did, specifically one that lasted only during the singing of happy birthday, he started asking me about what it would cost to do similar small shows like that at a profit.

I priced out the product with a markup and what I would consider reasonable compensation for setup to cleanup. The number I came up with, in his opinion, was reasonable enough that he believed there would be a market. During our discussions, which occurred over a few drinks I must admit, we came up with several applications for short small 1.4 shows like, gender reveals, proposals, weddings, ribbon cuttings, grand openings....you get the idea.

I understand, and made sure he did too, that my rough numbers did not include all costs and time associated with things such as insurance, permits, inventory costs, show design etc. All some of the reasons I wouldn't want to get into this business. However, my thought since then was, what about display companies that already deal with all of this other stuff? Why wouldn't they partner with people to sell these small shows and pay advanced shooters like the people on this forum to do the shoot? If it's all small 1.4 shows there's no need to worry about special transport, storage etc. Any one of us in a legal state like PA can transport, store and fire this product with firing systems and hardware we already posses.

I suspect there's not enough profit in it or we would see more of this. But I'm not sure volume would not make up for the low profit margins. I could be very wrong and way off base. Maybe that's why I don't see more of this. Maybe this is a bigger business then I am aware of too. My family member in the event business pointed out to me what people pay for things such as DJ's, dove releases, balloon releases, even butterfly releases. His question to me was if someone can make a living releasing butterflies and balloons, why not fireworks? That's what has me wondering if there is a market out there that is not being taken advantage of.

[RalphieJ]

"...….my rough numbers did not include all costs and time associated with things such as insurance, permits, inventory costs, show design etc...…" Please go back and crunch the numbers again with these items, especially insurance. If you don't know what to estimate for insurance coverage, start with 25% of the GROSS invoice price, ie, cost to the customer. That was the rate quite a while ago for an established company with an impeccable safety history. BTW, the owner/operator that I am friendly with does weddings and other small jobs, by himself, no helpers, and transports with his own vehicle. One last thing, please don't take this in a negative way: IMO the reason you younger fellows think a 15-minute show is not affordable is because you throw so much crap into the sky at once. The smoke obscures 1/3-1/2 of the effects. Think beyond sky puke, less is more. You should be painting the sky with carefully placed and timed brush strokes, and not throwing a 5-gallon pail of paint up there all at once.

[Birdman]

"...?.my rough numbers did not include all costs and time associated with things such as insurance, permits, inventory costs, show design etc...?" Please go back and crunch the numbers again with these items, especially insurance. If you don't know what to estimate for insurance coverage, start with 25% of the GROSS invoice price, ie, cost to the customer. That was the rate quite a while ago for an established company with an impeccable safety history. BTW, the owner/operator that I am friendly with does weddings and other small jobs, by himself, no helpers, and transports with his own vehicle. One last thing, please don't take this in a negative way: IMO the reason you younger fellows think a 15-minute show is not affordable is because you throw so much crap into the sky at once. The smoke obscures 1/3-1/2 of the effects. Think beyond sky puke, less is more. You should be painting the sky with carefully placed and timed brush strokes, and not throwing a 5-gallon pail of paint up there all at once.

For the sake of conversation....The happy birthday "show" I did, IIRC, consisted of something like 2 fountains, a 16 shot cake, a roman candle rack and a mix of small artillery shells and cans. I think 10 shots total. Laughable to most anyone on here but when timed right it was impressive to my audience. Now that I've learned a lot more I can't wait to show them what I can do with a cobra and some AP. Anyway, just to entertain this guy I threw out a cost of about $350. Obviously most of that is labor for something that small. IF (big if) insurance would be 25% percent of that your looking at under $500 which my guy in the party business was fairly confident the market would go for when comparing similar services in his industry. He gets somewhere around that to supply a photo booth at events that you can buy for about 2 grand.

I'm totally with you on the "sky puke" thing. I said on here recently that it's not how big it is, it's how you use it. What your friend appears to be doing is very similar to what I was thinking just bigger. Now imagine he is in a state like PA. He buys AP, designs a small show, marks it up so he makes money, and markets it to party planners and event venues. Then he hires a hobbyist with a cobra and gear to do the rest.

My son worked for a DJ business. That business would subcontract most small gigs out to guys like my son that had all of their own gear and did this as a side job. These days it's easy to get into the DJ business if you want because you don't need to maintain a massive music collection and huge amount of gear with new technology. You can fit a whole music library in your pocket now for practically nothing. All he was given was an address, date/time and a script on how the event was suppose to go. He made a couple of bucks and the business made a decent buck having to do very little. So I guess my point is, like the DJ business, technology has changed to the point where just about anyone can put on a professional looking show. It just takes a little bit of specialized gear and some experience. I'm sure the old school DJ's hated the advent of the MP3 file and DJ software and probably thought the ipod was the end of their industry but they weren't able to stop it. The smart ones in the industry figured out how to use this to their advantage and the DJ business is still going strong. If anything it's grown as far as I can tell.

[Arclight]

The big one is the commercial hazmat transportation insurance - The quotes I got were around $15-20K/year and that is obviously on top of the CDL, DOT, PHMSRA, etc. fees. You can get a display pyro policy for $3-5K/year for a small operation from the agent that used to advertise here.

I think you're right that you would basically need to run this like your DJ example - under someone else's insurance as a contractor.

[cptnding]

The big one is the commercial hazmat transportation insurance - The quotes I got were around $15-20K/year and that is obviously on top of the CDL, DOT, PHMSRA, etc. fees. You can get a display pyro policy for $3-5K/year for a small operation from the agent that used to advertise here.

I think you're right that you would basically need to run this like your DJ example - under someone else's insurance as a contractor.

I don't think the hazmat transport insurance would be an issue for the small shows described above. Even when in commerce, if less than 1000 pounds, 1.4 product doesn't require a hazmat endorsement by the DOT..
Display insurance would be required though.

[pyrobeef]

I am adding Tannerite Explosives to the list of fireworks distributors accepting my Continuing Education program for Articles of Pyrotechnics. I welcome inquiring from other distributors selling AP products. The industry needs to move forward on this.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocK7uW0m1_Y&t=8s

I purchased a case of the M-25 100 Shot Air Bursts and a case of the 25 shot Willows the first week of January. Shot one willow cake on the Chinese New Year, it was very nice! I used the certificate you provided for completing your CE course and they didn't ask any questions. Perhaps you had already worked it out with them. Anyway, Tannerite is a great company with great customer service. I am so glad they are being added to your list of distributors!

[displayfireworks1]

Glad to have a fireworks enthusiast from Utah on the forums. Thank you for purchasing my continuing education program. From reading your other post it sounds like you are enjoying your Cobra system. I was pleased to add Tannerite to the list of Articles of Pyrotechnic distributors. There is now a larger and larger group of fireworks enthusiast looking for products to meet their ever advancing fireworks firing system needs. Glad to hear someone is out there celebrating Chinese New Year.

[pyrobeef]

Glad to have a fireworks enthusiast from Utah on the forums. Thank you for purchasing my continuing education program. From reading your other post it sounds like you are enjoying your Cobra system. I was pleased to add Tannerite to the list of Articles of Pyrotechnic distributors. There is now a larger and larger group of fireworks enthusiast looking for products to meet their ever advancing fireworks firing system needs. Glad to hear someone is out there celebrating Chinese New Year.

I am glad to be apart of this community! Best decision I ever made was start watching displayfireworks1 videos and joining PyroTalk...although my wife may not agree :-) Now I have the confidence to give a pyromusical a go this summer. Just placed my fireworks order (from some of PyroTalk advertisers none-the-less) for the show. This is why I was glad to see Tannerite added, because I think they are a quality product and it's nice to support them and PyroTalk at the same time.

[displayfireworks1]

A lot of wives make funny comments to me. When I go to an event and start talking they recognize my voice as the one that distracts their husband on the computer watching videos. LOL Thanks for the feedback and reporting on some of your progress.

[Birdman]

I am glad to be apart of this community! Best decision I ever made was start watching displayfireworks1 videos and joining PyroTalk...although my wife may not agree :-) Now I have the confidence to give a pyromusical a go this summer. Just placed my fireworks order (from some of PyroTalk advertisers none-the-less) for the show. This is why I was glad to see Tannerite added, because I think they are a quality product and it's nice to support them and PyroTalk at the same time


A lot of wives make funny comments to me. When I go to an event and start talking they recognize my voice as the one that distracts their husband on the computer watching videos. LOL

So it's not just my wife:D

[Arclight]

I don't think the hazmat transport insurance would be an issue for the small shows described above. Even when in commerce, if less than 1000 pounds, 1.4 product doesn't require a hazmat endorsement by the DOT..
Display insurance would be required though.

Oh, that's a good point. Yes, that could work if you do all 1.4 and AP. Hmm....

[Pyro Paul]

I did a "small" show for a local church last July, I received no money ( I actually lost about $400) the budget was 2k and it was "20 min of constant explosions". It was a permitted show on the church property with a firetruck standing by and the church paid the money directly to the wholesaler for the fireworks. I did all the work and supplied the initiators, my cobra system, my racks and spent 3 days putting it together which cost me 3 days of vacation. Is this the sort of thing the display companies are worried about?

[displayfireworks1]

I did a "small" show for a local church last July, I received no money ( I actually lost about $400) the budget was 2k and it was "20 min of constant explosions". It was a permitted show on the church property with a firetruck standing by and the church paid the money directly to the wholesaler for the fireworks. I did all the work and supplied the initiators, my cobra system, my racks and spent 3 days putting it together which cost me 3 days of vacation. Is this the sort of thing the display companies are worried about?

No they are worried about the people that come up to you after the show and ask: We are getting married in June and we would like to have fireworks at our wedding . Or the city council member from the neighboring city that happens to attend that church and figures he can get you to under bid their current vendor that does the July 4th display for them. The display companies do not necessarily think your display skills are better than theirs, they are afraid everyone else that see's the show may think they are. They are afraid of the bigger picture and not necessarily that they lost a church display

[RalphieJ]

I did a "small" show for a local church last July, I received no money ( I actually lost about $400) the budget was 2k and it was "20 min of constant explosions". It was a permitted show on the church property with a firetruck standing by and the church paid the money directly to the wholesaler for the fireworks. I did all the work and supplied the initiators, my cobra system, my racks and spent 3 days putting it together which cost me 3 days of vacation. Is this the sort of thing the display companies are worried about?

You did this without insurance?

[Robbro097]

Just in today from tannerite. http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=4752&stc=1

[edspen1]

i bought air bursts at profireworks in michigan. i didn't have to do anything but fill out a paper saying i would not re-sell them. no i.d needed signed the paper and walked out....

[displayfireworks1]

The complaints in regard to Articles of Pyrotechnics are originating out of the American Pyrotechnic Association. If you believe what they say, they claim the ATF is upset these items are ending up in the hands of unqualified users. The irony is , its many of the APA members that may actually be the ones selling to unqualified users.
Rumor has it , the APA has a committee looking at the sale and use of AP's . I sent them my continuing education video and firing system verification program for review. I'm curious to see what their response will be. My guess is the response will be, no response. I suspect APA members are looking for an answer where the display companies can use them and store them just anywhere and not have anyone but them use and store them anywhere. I see more and more distributors starting to sell these and create pretty colored catalogs with pictures etc. That type of catalog is for consumer sales , not other display companies. The APA and/or the NFA needs to make a decision on what exactly the criteria will be to sell these items.

[Robbro097]

The complaints in regard to Articles of Pyrotechnics are originating out of the American Pyrotechnic Association. If you believe what they say, they claim the ATF is upset these items are ending up in the hands of unqualified users. The irony is , its many of the APA members that may actually be the ones selling to unqualified users.
Rumor has it , the APA has a committee looking at the sale and use of AP's . I sent them my continuing education video and firing system verification program for review. I'm curious to see what their response will be. My guess is the response will be, no response. I suspect APA members are looking for an answer where the display companies can use them and store them just anywhere and not have anyone but them use and store them anywhere. I see more and more distributors starting to sell these and create pretty colored catalogs with pictures etc. That type of catalog is for consumer sales , not other display companies. The APA and/or the NFA needs to make a decision on what exactly the criteria will be to sell these items.

I thought your continuing education was very informative alot is very familiar having watched your videos for a # of years and really stresses the importance of stabilizing. And unlike if i had just taken a hands on class if i forget something its gone. I still have your vid class link saved in my email that i can go over anytime i want.

[Birdman]

Let's say they do make it so that AP becomes available only to display companies. My understanding is that AP has the same composition as 1.4 consumer fireworks and what makes them different is how the composition is packaged. If that's the case, couldn't they simply manufacture a fully 1.4 consumer compliant product that has essentially the same performance and firing options as AP? I understand that there would need to be some changes, such as tube spacing, but I think that would be minor to most backyard hobbyists. Am I missing something or is this not the logical direction things could go as a result to any changes to AP availability?

[Me,indypyro]

It looks like I will be stockpiling ap this year....in case they decide to make a monopoly on those items. Thanks Dave for keeping us in the loop as this progresses.

[RalphieJ]

I'm pretty sure most of you guys know (or at least highly suspect) how this is going to end. As I have said before, existing 1.3 manufacturing/display operators are fiercely competitive, cut throat, if you will. Stories past told of extreme methods such as the sabotage of grand finale strings while the shooters were busy with the body of the show, and sending skilled workers undercover to steal manufacturing secrets. They would prefer to keep AP out of the hands of backyard consumers to reduce competition because, let's be real, this is how they feed their families. (Most were supportive of the 1966 CPSC ban). On the positive side, there is a solution if this should turn this way.
As the fella above is saying, "stock up". Or get your 54.

[Scotty Rockets]

Say good bye to 1.4pro or otherwise known as UN0431.... what Dominator has been worried about is about to come to true... it seems that self governing UN0431 has lasted as long as it could.... now it will be 1.3 and regulated by the ATF... remember the ATF is only for the big guys and a huge lobbing force, don?t believe it? Look how the APA lobbied for their own benefit with a particular FMSCA log rule where any display related work is done as off duty, after a hazmat driver has delivered the product.