Over night?

[yamiacaveman]

I can't remember in which video of Dave's I saw this, but it had to do with hauling 1.3 fireworks and for some reason the truck had to stay overnight, somewhere, and I think you said something it was OK as long as some one stayed with the truck all night??? Something along those lines.

So here is my senario, so I am from NE PA, I drive like 2 1/2 hours out to Fire Art pick up my stuff, get home, set up, wait to shoot, then the sky opens up, ending what I had planned to shoot off. So the rain ends at midnight, I load everything back up, get back to Fire Art at 3 am and of course no one is there. Being a hobbyist with only contingent storage, can I (or others) sit in my car watch my stuff all night then shoot it off the next night?

[BMoore]

I'll take a stab at this and if my understanding is off I hope someone corrects me.

First there really isn't a "same day" or "24 hour rule" with contingency storage. For all practical purposes there is, but technically fireworks are either 1) In Storage, 2) In Transport or 3) In process. As long as you are doing #2 or #3 storage isn't a concern. For example, you could pick up your product on Saturday and spend Saturday through Sunday setting up for a shoot Sunday night. As long as you are awake and within view of the product that is perfectly fine. Similarly, transportation could take more than 24 hours. Say you load two shows on a truck and shoot one show that night and the second show the following night. That's ok too as long as you stay with the truck since the product is still in transport. As far as parking the truck there are DOT rules that come into play. For instance you can't park on a public street, outside an public building, near a bridge, etc. So parking in someone's driveway overnight with their permission and with you staying with the vehicle is probably ok. Parking in a hotel or restaurant parking lot overnight is probably illegal.

Now in your question you specifically talk about rain. Do you really want to spend the effort tearing down a show at midnight in the rain and then sitting awake in a car full of explosives all night in hopes of better weather tomorrow? That sounds horrible! Unless we are talking about high winds, tornados, hurricanes I'm shooting the product. If I absolutely can't shoot I'm going back to my contingency storage and postponing for more than 1 day. Remember when you are with your product you have to be awake! A person can only do so much and processing explosives severely sleep deprived is not a good situation. My advice is to learn to weatherproof your product and always be prepared to shoot in the rain. My rule of thumb is if bad weather (i.e. severe storms) is possible I keep the product on the vehicle as long as possible in case I decide to cancel and return to my contingency. Once I make the decision to start setting up, that is like passing the point of no return......there WILL be a fireworks show that night.

[yamiacaveman]

Thanks for the reply BMoore!

I like the way you took a stab at it!

In my question I used rain just as some kind of cause of not setting them off. But my bigger point was I decide to cancel at 9:30 at night the sprinkles of rain now turned into severe thunderstorm. I only have 30 3" shells that I was going to hand fire and they are still in my truck. again driving back to my contingency storage takes me till midnight or so, and of course no one is there to take back my order. So I sit there, until when? Maybe 8 am until someone shows up, then I look at my phone and the weather forecast is for a beautiful night. Now I drive back home with my same order? Just seems a little redundant.

Listen, I'm new to all of this and I really don't want to loose my FEL over doing something stupid, if the rule is I have to return then so be it, on the other if all it takes to be legal, is for some one to be awake with the product, to me that's a lot easier than driving 2.5 hours then waiting and staying awake for 8 hours until someone shows up, then driving 2.5 hours home.

Just looking at the options and you gave me some great advice -- In storage - in transport or in process.

Again thanks BMoore! Listen, I not trying to be nasty or anything, just trying to figure out the best solutions before the problems arise. And I really appreciate your input and any ones input!

[chriskrc]

I think it was Dave's 2 shows and a microwave video in which the truck had to stay somewhere overnight. I remember in the video he stated he had someone watching the truck.

[yamiacaveman]

Thanks chriskrc!!!!

I thought I was going nuts for a second or maybe longer. I did not spend I lot of time going back to look for it, but I knew I saw something like that.

Do you know if this applies to Hobbyists too!

[BMoore]

I'm guessing that the person watching the truck was an ATF vetted employee possessor of the Display company Dave was shooting for. As far as I know you can't just ask your buddy to babysit your fireworks while you go take a nap. Any licensee can have employee possessors but the process is almost the same as getting your own ATF license. Also, I believe they have to be genuine employees. That may mean a business license, payroll reporting, 1099's etc. Again, a lot of work to keep from shooting a half case of shells in the rain.

[displayfireworks1]

This is more misconceptions about how to handle an overnight storage and employee possessor. This is where also having a CDL and Hazmat gives you extra knowledge in how to handle unusual events.

[BMoore]

This is more misconceptions about how to handle an overnight storage and employee possessor. This is where also having a CDL and Hazmat gives you extra knowledge in how to handle unusual events.

And that's why I said I hope someone corrects me if I'm wrong! :) Now I'm intrigued. My understanding is that if fireworks are out of the magazine they need to be in transport or in process both of which require the licensee or employee possessor to be awake and attending. Is that not accurate? Remember, the scenario involves a not in commerce person with 30 shells in the back of his car and the weather has turned so bad that it's impossible to load or discharge the shells for 24 hours. However unlikely, what options are legally available besides returning to storage or destroying the product?

[displayfireworks1]

How would you handle it ?

[BMoore]

How would you handle it ?

As I stated in my first reply, I'd handle it by shooting those 30 shells rain or shine plain and simple. If it were an entire show rather a few shells I'm still going to shoot it 99.99% of the time. In some absolute worst case scenario where it was impossible to squeeze in a 20-30 minute show then I'm postponing for a week/month/whatever and returning the product to storage.

[displayfireworks1]

From the State of Pennsylvania CDL Hazmat driver manual. Does the ATF agree with both statements?????
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http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=4747&stc=1

[BMoore]

From the State of Pennsylvania CDL Hazmat driver manual. Does the ATF agree with both statements?????
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http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=4747&stc=1

Nope. Those statements apply to transport in commerce. For not in commerce you follow ATF rules which say that once product is delivered to the shoot site or storage site transportation ends and storage rules apply. Also when a not in commerce vehicle stops for the night storage rules apply. So that takes me back to my original thought....The only way to keep the product out of storage for a 24 hour delay is to keep it “in process.” That’s going to mean the licensee or an employee possessor being awake and attending the product until it is discharged.

[displayfireworks1]

What if you put it all back in the truck and lock the truck???? How would you handle that?

[BMoore]

What if you put it all back in the truck and lock the truck???? How would you handle that?

If I put it back on the truck and locked it up then I'm on my way back to my storage.

The transportation function ended when the product arrived at the shoot site. By re-loading the truck without re-starting transportation you have an illegal storage situation. I believe you can apply for a variance to store product in properly locked and attended vehicles at the shoot site, but that's not going to work for a last minute rain delay. If you really want to delay your show 24 hours without storage, I see no other way than staying awake and keeping the show set up "in process."

[displayfireworks1]

Illegal storage back in the truck? Or is the product still on the shoot site and the show is taking longer to setup than anticipated ?

[BMoore]

Illegal storage back in the truck? Or is the product still on the shoot site and the show is taking longer to setup than anticipated ?

My interpretation would be if its in the truck locked up, you aren't accessing it, and transportation isn't imminent then yes it's an illegal storage situation. Now, if you are accessing the product and doing something with it then maybe you can argue that it's still in process. I'm honestly not sure. It's not an argument that I'd personally try to make. Is there an answer?

[Fire Art]

I can't remember in which video of Dave's I saw this, but it had to do with hauling 1.3 fireworks and for some reason the truck had to stay overnight, somewhere, and I think you said something it was OK as long as some one stayed with the truck all night??? Something along those lines.

So here is my senario, so I am from NE PA, I drive like 2 1/2 hours out to Fire Art pick up my stuff, get home, set up, wait to shoot, then the sky opens up, ending what I had planned to shoot off. So the rain ends at midnight, I load everything back up, get back to Fire Art at 3 am and of course no one is there. Being a hobbyist with only contingent storage, can I (or others) sit in my car watch my stuff all night then shoot it off the next night?



LOL around the fourth I can assure you one of us is at Fire Art at midnight or 3 am. ;)

[displayfireworks1]

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Reasonable and Prudent
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIYo7y5EYw8

[BMoore]

Great advice!

[Arclight]

Nice video, Dave. The ATF rep I deal with made it sound like variances were for either permanent situations, like you want to use an electronic lock on your magazines or something. Or serious situations, like you need to relocate your whole stash 30 miles away today because a wildfire is coming.

[displayfireworks1]

At Arclight, I know you are in the explosive business, its nice to hear your perspective and experience with variances. When you deal with any type of explosives there is an element of risk and decision making at multiple levels along the way. If you are a hobbyist contingency user of explosives, my guess is, don't even think about asking the ATF for a variance on anything. That changes once you establish your own storage.