Indiana DHS public display permits for 2020

[357pyro]

The Indiana DHS has a new portal for registering shoot permits. I had some issues getting logged into it and was helped out by a DHS representative. She was very helpful and got me access to the new system. While having a phone conversation with her she brought to my attention that you can no longer file for 10 shoot dates at the same site on one permit. In 2020 you will have to pay for a permit ($69) plus and additional $7 processing fee for every shoot. How many Indiana guys out there currently pull a permit every time you have a shoot? Seems to me like they are really trying to make it harder and harder for a hobbyist like me. I don't currently do any for commerce shows and all my shoots are on private property. It has also been explained to me by DHS that it makes no difference if you are shooting for personal use or commerce, a permit is always required to shoot 1.3G in Indiana. So there is no real loophole to side step the permit process. I would love to hear what people on the forum think about this.

[Crush630]

I've been told by both PD and FD in writing, that no permit is required if shooting on personal land. Wondering what the agent will say Thursday when they come by for my renewal.

[357pyro]

I've been told by both PD and FD in writing, that no permit is required if shooting on personal land. Wondering what the agent will say Thursday when they come by for my renewal.

Are you located in Indiana? I see your location says Chicago. If you are in indiana I would love to hear what they say at your renewal.

[joewad]

Check your PMs

[Crush630]

Check your PMs

I don't have anything in my PM's

[joewad]

I don't have anything in my PM's

Sorry, was directed towards 357pyro

[joewad]

I've been told by both PD and FD in writing, that no permit is required if shooting on personal land. Wondering what the agent will say Thursday when they come by for my renewal.

Personally feel you should have no problem......... Make sure your docs are in order. They asked me for my last ten purchases. Since I am based on contingency storage, my review agent liked my idea of writing across the bottom of appropriate purchase document that "items were shot/disposed of on date of acquisition" then initialed or signed and dated. Keep it simple, short and on point as well as your answers to verbal questions. A little tongue in cheek but in some worlds 2 plus 2 still equals 4.

[IndianaPH]

357pyro, PM Sent

[Crush630]

Follow up after my inspection:

Well, they asked where I was shooting and if it was on public or private property. Answered their questions, providing them the necessary documents from FD and PD on regulations. All done within 23mins.

[joewad]

Follow up after my inspection:

Well, they asked where I was shooting and if it was on public or private property. Answered their questions, providing them the necessary documents from FD and PD on regulations. All done within 23mins.

Most excellent.

[357pyro]

Follow up after my inspection:

Well, they asked where I was shooting and if it was on public or private property. Answered their questions, providing them the necessary documents from FD and PD on regulations. All done within 23mins.

Thanks for the update. Are you located in Indiana then I’m assuming? What documents did you provide from the FD and PD?

[Crush630]

Thanks for the update. Are you located in Indiana then I’m assuming? What documents did you provide from the FD and PD?

Im not located in Indiana, im in the next state to the left that taxes you for everything.... I know a few people who own acres of land in Indiana. The documents I provided were the emails from the FD and PD chief on the fireworks laws in the town's I shot in.

[357pyro]

Im not located in Indiana, im in the next state to the left that taxes you for everything.... I know a few people who own acres of land in Indiana. The documents I provided were the emails from the FD and PD chief on the fireworks laws in the town's I shot in.

Ok, thanks for clarifying.

[Pyrojerry730]

So you do need a permit to shoot in Indiana... whether its 1 shell...or 100 shells??? seems a bit strange to have to do that if its on private land.

[Crush630]

So you do need a permit to shoot in Indiana... whether its 1 shell...or 100 shells??? seems a bit strange to have to do that if its on private land.

If its a "public display" then yes. If its a "private display" then no.

[357pyro]

If its a "public display" then yes. If its a "private display" then no.

That is not accurate crush, according to Indiana statutes if you shoot any 1.3 you need a permit no matter if its public or private. Not sure where you are getting your information but it's incorrect. I've read the laws and communicated with Indiana DHS on this topic. Plenty of guys in the state shoot without a permit on private property and do so at their own risk. I'm not against doing that at all, just saying by the letter of the law it's not legal. If you have a good relationship with your local LE and are respectful of neighbors I highly doubt you would even run into problems with IN DHS. I personally just pull the permit when I shoot. Small amount of hassle to be legal is worth it in my experience.

[Crush630]

Please re-read the law.


IC 22-11-14-2 Public displays; permits; fees; qualified operations; denial of permit; violations

http://iga.in.gov/legislative/laws/2018/ic/titles/022/#22-11-14-2

[357pyro]

Please re-read the law.


IC 22-11-14-2 Public displays; permits; fees; qualified operations; denial of permit; violations

http://iga.in.gov/legislative/laws/2018/ic/titles/022/#22-11-14-2

Just to humor you and because I have nothing better to do I went again and looked at the statutes again. There is absolutely nothing in there that supports your claims. I will admit that there is a lack of anything in there that specifically addresses private displays of "special fireworks" which is Indiana's definition of 1.3G. As I previously mentioned I have communicated through email directly with the Indiana DHS and they have confirmed to me that a permit is required no matter the circumstance. I have gone as far as to explain to them that I would be shooting only as a hobbyist, non commerce, on private ground. If it's 1.3G it needs a permit. That is direct from the horses mouth. At the end of the day its not going to stop you from getting product from your distributor and you can fire at your own risk. I just don't think we need to be spreading false information on this forum that could potentially harm someone from a legal aspect.

[Crush630]

I completely understand what you are saying, but the law has to be very specific. I've communicated with the local LE, FC and City, and county with all providing me written documentation that private shoots on private property do not constitute as a public display.

My 54 renewal was a couple of months back, and I provided the agents with the documents. No questioned's asked.

[357pyro]

I completely understand what you are saying, but the law has to be very specific. I've communicated with the local LE, FC and City, and county with all providing me written documentation that private shoots on private property do not constitute as a public display.

My 54 renewal was a couple of months back, and I provided the agents with the documents. No questioned's asked.

What you are saying makes sense but local LE doesn't really have any authority to override the DHS, glad to know they are on your side though and wouldn't turn you in to DHS for shooting w no permit. As far as ATF is concerned they only want to make sure you are follow their regs properly. They don't enforce Indiana laws, so totally makes sense that they renewed you. If all your paper work is in order they have no reason not to. At the end of the day, you still aren't compliant with DHS without a permit if you shoot 1.3G. Personally I disagree with it, there should be something in the laws that spells out that non commerce doesn't require the shoot permit. Unfortunately for anyone wanting to be 100% legal we will just have to keep pulling a permit and paying the fees. I'll leave it at that.

[Crush630]

Hahaha, I'm an operator. I know the dos and don'ts.

[zmaster725]

This same topic came up last week in my interview. Since I spent the better part of the last 15 years working for a fire department I questioned the statute. The atf investigator couldn’t recall ever hearing of a citation issued for not having a permit and even agreed that it was probably just to give uncle Hoosier some money. Since the atf does not have access to the dhs per it records that brings up another item to me as to why it’s not valid. Anyone else familiar with Indiana statutes also knows that the statutes go in depth as to the extent of punishment for failure to comply. This one does not. Considering there has been a “boom” in hobbyist license applications I foresee an amendment to the statute to encompass all usage of “display fireworks” whether private or public display. After consulting with my attorney I have been assured that any citation would not hold up in court because the statute has no wording for private use.

[joewad]

My finale this year will include a "wall" of snakes, smoke bombs and sparklers. I might add a 96 shot color pearl.

[IndianaPH]

My finale this year will include a "wall" of snakes, smoke bombs and sparklers. I might add a 96 shot color pearl.

joewad, you mean you are not adding any whistling bungholes, no spleen spliters, whisker biscuits, honkey lighters, hoosker doos, hoosker donts, cherry bombs, nipsy daisers, with or without the scooter stick, or one single whistling kitty chaser?

[joewad]

joewad, you mean you are not adding any whistling bungholes, no spleen spliters, whisker biscuits, honkey lighters, hoosker doos, hoosker donts, cherry bombs, nipsy daisers, with or without the scooter stick, or one single whistling kitty chaser?

I'm on the fence with a new item this year from TNT called Golden Showers, heard it was a good one
4833

[Crush630]

Im next door in IL , as the Indian guy from Joe Dirt would say "because snakes and sparklers are the only ones I like"

[joewad]

Im next door in IL , as the Indian guy from Joe Dirt would say "because snakes and sparklers are the only ones I like"

And it looked kinda like this......4834

[zmaster725]

My finale this year will include a "wall" of snakes, smoke bombs and sparklers. I might add a 96 shot color pearl.

That?s it, I?m canceling my show to come see yours.

[Pyrojerry730]

can anyone help with getting a permit for shooting 1.3 in indiana

[Crush630]

can anyone help with getting a permit for shooting 1.3 in indiana

going to need more info than that..

What are you shooting
Where are you shooting

[displayfireworks1]

This same topic came up last week in my interview. Since I spent the better part of the last 15 years working for a fire department I questioned the statute. The atf investigator couldn’t recall ever hearing of a citation issued for not having a permit and even agreed that it was probably just to give uncle Hoosier some money. Since the atf does not have access to the dhs per it records that brings up another item to me as to why it’s not valid. Anyone else familiar with Indiana statutes also knows that the statutes go in depth as to the extent of punishment for failure to comply. This one does not. Considering there has been a “boom” in hobbyist license applications I foresee an amendment to the statute to encompass all usage of “display fireworks” whether private or public display. After consulting with my attorney I have been assured that any citation would not hold up in court because the statute has no wording for private use.

I'm jumping late into this thread I know, but thanks for confirming some of what I have been saying over the years in regard to permits and citations. Most state regulation do not address private ATF license holders shooting for their own enjoyment. The little bit I do know about Indiana and display permits, they seem pretty easy to get. For the insurance question , some people are using their homeowners insurance or property insurance policy. Indian to me seem pretty fireworks friendly.

[Crush630]

I'm jumping late into this thread I know, but thanks for confirming some of what I have been saying over the years in regard to permits and citations. Most state regulation do not address private ATF license holders shooting for their own enjoyment. The little bit I do know about Indiana and display permits, they seem pretty easy to get. For the insurance question , some people are using their homeowners insurance or property insurance policy. Indian to me seem pretty fireworks friendly.

Compared to IL where fireworks are illegal and we still tax you to death.

[357pyro]

http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=4979&stc=1

I went on to file for my shoot permit for the 4th this year and noticed this on the DHS website. Not sure how new it is, but seems like they are wanting to address this specific issue.

[MidwestPyrotechnics]

http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=4979&stc=1

I went on to file for my shoot permit for the 4th this year and noticed this on the DHS website. Not sure how new it is, but seems like they are wanting to address this specific issue.

I saw this too. I think its relatively new because I didnt see it earlier this year. The state had told me on the phone prior that even if i was only shooting 1.4 product if it was for commerce they wanted a permit. But the website states that as long as its "private" you don't have to have a permit. I was told in a phone call conversation back in October with DHS that they wanted to make it mandatory to obtain a display permit for ALL displays including backyard 1.4. I dont see how the could feasibly enforce that though.

[357pyro]

I saw this too. I think its relatively new because I didnt see it earlier this year. The state had told me on the phone prior that even if i was only shooting 1.4 product if it was for commerce they wanted a permit. But the website states that as long as its "private" you don't have to have a permit. I was told in a phone call conversation back in October with DHS that they wanted to make it mandatory to obtain a display permit for ALL displays including backyard 1.4. I dont see how the could feasibly enforce that though.

Lol yeah good luck trying to make that stick. I'm still upset they want paid for every single day you want a permit for. I used to get up to 10 dates for the same shoot site on one permit. Some guys had grandfathered in all year permits at one location for the 69.00 bucks. That permit would now cost over 25K. The state is on a money grab and there is no better explanation than that.

[tmwjr]

The state is on a money grab and there is no better explanation than that.

Possibly the beginnings of prohibition? It's not illegal...but it's very difficult.

[joewad]

It won't be long and the additional 7% safety tax you see added to 1.4 products in Indiana will soon be applied to 1.3. When that happens along with the above it'll be bye-bye pyro for me. The "pyro enjoyment" is getting squeezed out of me.

4986

[MidwestPyrotechnics]

The state is on a money grab and there is no better explanation than that.

I definitely agree. As Joewad pointed out. I think a lot of people will start dropping out if they keep this up. Lexington Kentucky increased the amount of insurance that they wanted to a minimum of 5 million a while back and a bunch of the shows in Lexington cancelled that year.

[BMoore]

Sure it's a money grab and with tax revenues down drastically, expect a greater push to drive revenue from things like permits and licensing. That also incentivizes the state to make compliance obtainable. As far as I know, Indiana is one of the easiest states to legally shoot 1.3. With other states requiring massive insurance requirements, extensive shooter resumes, etc. etc. I wouldn't be complaining too much about $69 to pull a permit. That's less than the cost of one cake!

[Hoosierhick]

I got mine tonight. Went smooth after I got the chiefs blessing. He had no clue why I needed it but he was ok with the site plan. Just another revenue source. Still don't need anything to transport them to the shot site.
I talked with my ATF guy he wasn't clear on it either. He was to by IDHS that as soon as someone can see a 1.3 product in the air they consider it a public display. So better safe then sorry.

[fearnow]

So if I read that above correctly. IDHS wants us to buy a permit, to even transport 1.3?

[displayfireworks1]

Try to post some websites links if you have them. Many of these state transportation rules are usually specific to those in commence i.e companies shooting and or selling show for profit.

[Arclight]

Question for you guys: Most suppliers/government people/etc. understand the concept of a private fireworks show not being in commerce. Can you still do this if your ATF license is in the name of a company or LLC instead of you personally? I know people with explosives licenses both ways - under their given name or a business name. Although I don't think it should matter if the end use is not commerce, I'm wondering if anyone has had to test this.

[zmaster725]

I'm jumping late into this thread I know, but thanks for confirming some of what I have been saying over the years in regard to permits and citations. Most state regulation do not address private ATF license holders shooting for their own enjoyment. The little bit I do know about Indiana and display permits, they seem pretty easy to get. For the insurance question , some people are using their homeowners insurance or property insurance policy. Indian to me seem pretty fireworks friendly.


Well Dave,

It?s been a while since I logged in here and everything that I posted about the Indiana permit not being necessary for private license was wrong.

Rewind to my personal show on July 11 of last year. I only had 192-3? and 36-4? shells and about a dozen cakes so a fairly small show. Regardless, someone tried to complain to the local fire department who didn?t chose to pursue anything with it. The Complaint person chose to call the State. I had a call from the Indiana State fire Marshall?s office wanting to ask some questions about my show.

Long story short, I answered everything truthfully, that when I contacted the local fire department I was told I did not need a permit. That was wrong. Not only are you required to file a permit for every day you shoot anything 1.3g, but you also must have the state minimum insurance. Most people just get ship show insurance.

I was told since the local FD told me not to worry that this was a learning experience and to not do it again. Any and all 1.3 product once in the air is considered public display by the state?s interpretation. Therefore everyone in Indiana watch your asses and get the permit and insurance. The permit with fees is only $84 and insurance is generally 10-18% cost of your show. That?s cheaper than a $10,000 fine. You want to shoot with the big boys, they?ll fine you like the big boys.

[displayfireworks1]

Well Dave,

It?s been a while since I logged in here and everything that I posted about the Indiana permit not being necessary for private license was wrong.

Rewind to my personal show on July 11 of last year. I only had 192-3? and 36-4? shells and about a dozen cakes so a fairly small show. Regardless, someone tried to complain to the local fire department who didn?t chose to pursue anything with it. The Complaint person chose to call the State. I had a call from the Indiana State fire Marshall?s office wanting to ask some questions about my show.

Long story short, I answered everything truthfully, that when I contacted the local fire department I was told I did not need a permit. That was wrong. Not only are you required to file a permit for every day you shoot anything 1.3g, but you also must have the state minimum insurance. Most people just get ship show insurance.

I was told since the local FD told me not to worry that this was a learning experience and to not do it again. Any and all 1.3 product once in the air is considered public display by the state?s interpretation. Therefore everyone in Indiana watch your asses and get the permit and insurance. The permit with fees is only $84 and insurance is generally 10-18% cost of your show. That?s cheaper than a $10,000 fine. You want to shoot with the big boys, they?ll fine you like the big boys.

Since you have not been around in a while. My initial reaction to this is, there more to this story, you ask too many questions to these authorities, you are either trying to learn things the hard way, or you are up something. I'm, just not sure which one it is until I give it more thought or you explain it more. Indiana has many ATF license holders. I have been to Indiana to help an ATF license holder with a 1.3 display. He shows me a copy of the permit. The first thing is , you need an ATF license and if you behave in a professional manner, you can easily get that state permit every year.

[zmaster725]

Since you have not been around in a while. My initial reaction to this is, there more to this story, you ask too many questions to these authorities, you are either trying to learn things the hard way, or you are up something. I'm, just not sure which one it is until I give it more thought or you explain it more. Indiana has many ATF license holders. I have been to Indiana to help an ATF license holder with a 1.3 display. He shows me a copy of the permit. The first thing is , you need an ATF license and if you behave in a professional manner, you can easily get that state permit every year.


From a federal standpoint I did everything by the book. Picked up and discharged same day. I did not get the state permit since the local fire department said I didn’t need it since it was private use. The only thing that brought the rain down on me was someone got pissed at the noise and called the state to complain. I have done shows since and permitted them with no issues. Just wanted to let people know to always have the permit. The Atf was involved with the investigation of me but only to the extent of pulling my invoices and seeing that I bought and shot the same day and then they told the state there was nothing wrong on their end just that it was a state only matter.