Newbie questions - consumer mortar racks, number of firing circuits, etc?

[zargnut]

Hi,

I am a newbie.. have been linking cakes together with rudimentary fuse timing, and looking to move up to mortar racks and a firing system. I was looking at the cobra firing system with 72 cues.

I was going to setup a series of modular mortar racks for backyard shows.
- each module 3 rows of 8 tubes 1.91"
- 4 modules linked to another with industrial crate butterfly twist latches

Newbie questions (sorry for so many)
1) Do I need to have space between adjacent HDPE mortar tubes? I have seen commercial racks with and without spacers
2) Is there a preferred method for securing the talon igniters to the tubes
- I have seen poking through a hole at top of tube or looping around top with clove-hitch
3) Is there a risk that the talon wires from fired shells, will tangle/obstruct subsequent shells - and how do I avoid that?
- Is this why you don't see 3,4,5 stacked rows of mortars?
4) Is there a primer for how best to build a show with fewer cues than mortars?
- Is it common to just daisy chain a few mortar tubes with varying lengths or burn rate fuse to create staggered firing with a single cue?
5) I was planning on starting with about 120 mortars + a few cakes in the finale. Is this reasonable, or will my show be way to short, or spaced out? Cost will certainly be an issue... was looking at using the 60g?? excalibur type canister shells
6) If I am usually going to lean toward the larger consumer shells - should I stick with 15" tubes?

thanks in advance for any advice you can offer.

[displayfireworks1]

I don't think we are going to type 57 paragraphs to answer all of these questions. Lets start with how long have you been watching my videos on YouTube? What is you current level of fireworks experience?

[rfgonzo]

1. NO not for 1.91
2. personal preference
3. yes, make sure all wires are out of the way
4. Your creativity
5. anything is reasonable, it's up to your personal budget
6. 12'' or 15'' if fine

[zargnut]

Thanks for both replies. I have technical, engineering, wood and metal fabricating, chemistry experience. I have experience with theatrical light and sound, dmx controllers, building scenes and various non-pyro effects - fog, pneumatics. I have experience "playing" with consumer cakes, but no experience with shells or formal firing systems.

I have started reviewing a bunch of great videos.

Saw a nice backyard primer by Dave on a rigging a finale rack with various speed fuses.
I gathered from this that stringing these racks with fuse is certainly a good way to trigger shells. I see from the fuse volatility that having the tubes so close to each other will increase the likelihood of premature firing. I like the idea of using aluminum foil to prevent sparks from inadvertent triggering. I will build a bunch of different racks for rapid fire (close together) and single row for slower sequential firing.

I saw in your finale video you had a bunch of canister salutes (term?) sound without visual display? I have been looking for those at commercial stores - but not found them. Are these available to consumers? Any recommendations?

[Rick_In_Tampa]

The best way to wire talons are to twirl them into a big ball and then throw them in the trash! I hate talons. Way too unreliable IMHO.

If you want different speeds I would daisy chain shells with different types of fuse and use firewire initiators to start each chain.

This past year I used .25 sec per ft fast fuse to daisy chain 3 sets of 100 cans. They all went up in 7 seconds. Obviously there are a ton of different speed fuses available out there. So if you're looking to vary the speed of your shells, that's how I'd do it.

[zargnut]

Thanks. Good to know. will stick with the firewire ignitiators

[joewad]

The best way to wire talons are to twirl them into a big ball and then throw them in the trash! I hate talons. Way too unreliable IMHO.

If you want different speeds I would daisy chain shells with different types of fuse and use firewire initiators to start each chain.

This past year I used .25 sec per ft fast fuse to daisy chain 3 sets of 100 cans. They all went up in 7 seconds. Obviously there are a ton of different speed fuses available out there. So if you're looking to vary the speed of your shells, that's how I'd do it.

Agree with Rick_In_Tampa which translates to baby steps, baby steps. And remote systems are great but I would suggest starting small/cheap. And if you find yourself yearning for more then consider a more expensive unit. Personally, I about choked when you were considering your first remote system to be a 72 cue Cobra. Fine product but dude, you stated you are just starting out.

[zargnut]

Agree with Rick_In_Tampa which translates to baby steps, baby steps. And remote systems are great but I would suggest starting small/cheap. And if you find yourself yearning for more then consider a more expensive unit. Personally, I about choked when you were considering your first remote system to be a 72 cue Cobra. Fine product but dude, you stated you are just starting out.

Heh, yeah... I was thinking I was going to have to wire each and every tube... I will not be doing large synchronized shows any time soon. Smaller and simpler sounds like a great initial plan.

[PyroKing31]

Grab the Biluscon system on ebay. They have a 72 cue system which I have for $200. I have been using that system for this past season and have run 4 shows with it. Its easy to use, learn and get creative with. ebay also has e-matches.

you can fire up to 3 matches per cue with the biluscon system.

Also, grab some milk crates and dr11 tubes from pyroboom.com (a sponsor here) Milk crates hold 25 tubes each and make great DIY tube holders for shows. Be sure to put a piece of plywood down on the bottom or the tubes can bounce on launch and depart the crate.

Amazon has the crates for about $10 each worst case.

[zargnut]

Sounds good. I just bought 140 12" DR11 tubes and various fuses from pyroboom :-) and will build some home made racks over the next few weeks. I will probably go with a smaller cobra setup to start... it is expensive, but seems like something I can certainly grow into, USA made... and I like the MAC filtering / security features from a safety standpoint. I seem to remember they have a sale in previous years in March? Does anyone know, is this an annual promotion?

thanks
d

[PyroKing31]

Sounds good. I just bought 140 12" DR11 tubes and various fuses from pyroboom :-) and will build some home made racks over the next few weeks. I will probably go with a smaller cobra setup to start... it is expensive, but seems like something I can certainly grow into, USA made... and I like the MAC filtering / security features from a safety standpoint. I seem to remember they have a sale in previous years in March? Does anyone know, is this an annual promotion?

thanks
d

Cobra is very expandable and a much more complex but excellent system to grow into. The chinese systems work on a basic level for e-fire.

Cobra usually has a black friday sale to my knowledge.

[Robbro097]

Cobra does have a black friday sale wich is theyr best sale prices. (Cobra con excluded) then they do so.e sort of spring fl sale in march usually last week or so i believe. Im sure you'll be able to find deets on here or if u create an account at cobra website theyll email you details of sa)es when available. Im planning to add another 72m w slats and an audio box on blackfriday im a big fan. I did ebay systems to start and was hooked on efiring from 1st button push firewires inserted into lift charges on cake is the way to go instant ignition is amazing. On 1 hand im happy to have the Chinese system still easy to use and setup and still does get used, on the other hand that could have been a cpl 100 more in cobra gear. If you go the cobra route you should give serious consideration to daves AP package there is some great 1.4 pro stuff from his sponsers that except it.

[zargnut]

more great info.. I will signup for cobra notifications and plan on a blackfriday order, then AP cert.

[Birdman]

You may want to consider starting with a Chinese system. Besides being less expensive, it offers more flexibility, in terms of how you setup your show, than a single Cobra Module. You may find, like Robbro97, that you will still have a need for it even if you decide you want a Cobra system (e.g. Backup racks or cakes, find yourself unexpectedly needing more ques, don't want to risk taking your expensive system to certain sites etc.). It doesn't sound like you plan on using any of the features that make the Cobra system really stand out from the Chinese systems anyway. When you are, then you can upgrade and you will appreciate the Cobra that much more and you will have more experience to take advantage of it. It could even end up saving you money in the end because you will have a much better idea of what your needs really are when you do purchase Cobra gear.

I really recommend the learning to walk before you run mantra when it comes to any hobby, not just this one. I've seen too many people, including myself, get too hung up on having the best gear available when starting a new hobby. You never know what you will learn along the way or what the future will hold. It's almost inevitable that your interests or needs will change, technology will change and costs will change. Again, I say this out of experience having had many hobbies (model rocketry, computers, backpacking, Fishkeeping, fishing, gardening...I could go on). I have found that it is those hobbies that I started out small with that I not only stuck with but became good at. I'm not going to say you are making a bad decision starting with a Cobra. What I want to suggest is that if you learn how to fire impressive shows using a lesser system that you will be able to make better decisions when upgrading gear and more prepared to take advantage of that gear when/if that time comes. Being new to this hobby myself, this is the approach I am taking.

In either case, good luck and enjoy! I hope to hear more about how your hobby is growing on here.

[zargnut]

You may want to consider starting with a Chinese system. Besides being less expensive, it offers more flexibility, in terms of how you setup your show, than a single Cobra Module. You may find, like Robbro97, that you will still have a need for it even if you decide you want a Cobra system (e.g. Backup racks or cakes, find yourself unexpectedly needing more ques, don't want to risk taking your expensive system to certain sites etc.). It doesn't sound like you plan on using any of the features that make the Cobra system really stand out from the Chinese systems anyway. When you are, then you can upgrade and you will appreciate the Cobra that much more and you will have more experience to take advantage of it. It could even end up saving you money in the end because you will have a much better idea of what your needs really are when you do purchase Cobra gear.

I really recommend the learning to walk before you run mantra when it comes to any hobby, not just this one. I've seen too many people, including myself, get too hung up on having the best gear available when starting a new hobby. You never know what you will learn along the way or what the future will hold. It's almost inevitable that your interests or needs will change, technology will change and costs will change. Again, I say this out of experience having had many hobbies (model rocketry, computers, backpacking, Fishkeeping, fishing, gardening...I could go on). I have found that it is those hobbies that I started out small with that I not only stuck with but became good at. I'm not going to say you are making a bad decision starting with a Cobra. What I want to suggest is that if you learn how to fire impressive shows using a lesser system that you will be able to make better decisions when upgrading gear and more prepared to take advantage of that gear when/if that time comes. Being new to this hobby myself, this is the approach I am taking.

In either case, good luck and enjoy! I hope to hear more about how your hobby is growing on here.

Thank you. This is really good and thoughtful advice. I can think of many circumstances when I have been guilty of hobby related gear abuse/waste. I absolutely hear you all, and volunteer that i have not earned the need/right to step into a pro grade system before I practice the basics If I was triggering pneumatics and fog machines, I would be much less stubborn. In this particular case, my rationale is more about safety/reliability than features or cost. The reassurance provided by coded transmission, redundant hardware for me is worth more than the device cost. I acknowledge that this may just be paranoia/phobia - but one that is easily addressed by spending a bit more. I do promise not to get a 72 cue system.:rolleyes:

My mortars are being shipped from pyroboom. I will hopefully have a few pics of my first rack build in a few weeks. I also promise not to make them from oak or maple.. I was pondering a nice dovetailed hardwood project with 11ga stainless dividers.. then kinda smacked myself back into reality.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Ordinarily I would agree with the advice Birdman gave you 110%. His advice is very good. The ONLY reason I would disagree this time is, I (and many others in here!) went the route of the cheap Chinese system to start off, and we used them exactly 1 time before we jumped into the Cobra (or other more advanced) systems. So I have a Chinese system sitting somewhere collecting dust.

If you are 100% sure that this hobby is something you're serious about... Something you're going to go "all in" with... Then spend the money once, and get something you can use for the next 20 years! I started with four 18M's and an 18R2 remote. I put on the biggest show of my life that year and I was immediately hooked and wanted to do a pyro musical! So the next year I bought 8 more 18M's, an Audiobox, and a sound system (thank PyroJoeNEPA!). Last year I set a new record (for me!) with shooting my best show ever. This coming year I'm looking at adding slats so I can buy more/different effects to take my show to an even higher level.

To me, that is taking baby steps, but financially smart baby steps. I hate spending money for the same thing twice.

So what's my point... If you're not sure this pyro thing is for you just yet, then take Birdman's advice and go with the cheap Chinese system. But if you're confident this is the hobby for you for a long time to come, don't waste the money on a Chinese system you will likely never use again. Buy an advanced system like the Cobra and don't look back!

[PyroKing31]

So I have a Chinese system sitting somewhere collecting dust.



Wanna sell me those parts? I could use more cues.

[topshelfpyro]

I'm not going to knock Cobra because it is a well established system with a large following here and pretty darn good stuff. I would suggest looking into the other available systems as well like FireTEK especially which is extremely versatile (which is what I've invested in). Also, mongoose and others...?.

If you are sure this is something your going to do for a "while" invest the $ in whatever premium firing system you choose if you can afford it now. (It is a pretty steep learning curve for the programmable systems like Cobra and FireTEK vs a Chinese push button system) This is not a cheap "hobby" but good equipment lasts a long time when cared for and generally does not lose much value should you decide to sell for whatever reason in the future.

Build wood racks, the proper way, when you do but always remember distance is your best friend.

[Robbro097]

Distance is def your best friend and ill add stability i prob go a bit over on that but when it comes to safety of my audience i feel better over than under. I prob add more distance than necessary too at at least 300 ft from audience but i know theyr safe

[Birdman]

Well I had a long post all typed out and with one fat finger lost it all. In hindsight I can probably save everyone a few bytes of internet bandwidth and some reading time by summarizing my original post:

1. You do not have to earn the need/right to step into a pro grade system. You only need to afford it
2. I agree with Rick_In_Tampa IF "you are 100% sure that this hobby is something you're serious about... Something you're going to go "all in" with."
3. See Rick_In_Tampa's 4th of July 2019 show to get an idea of what he means by "serious" and going "all in"
4. It should be noted a $200+ lesson was already avoided by realizing a 72M is more than needed
5. Safety concerns may be a bit overblown but reliability concerns may be a bit more legitimate. I would prefer someone with more experience address this
6. I did have a button stick (zone selector) during my first show using my Chinese system that resulted in about 10 seconds of dead air while I figured out what was wrong and fixed it. Hasn't happened in the last 2 shows.
7. I wish I knew Rick_In_Tampa had a Chinese system sitting around collecting dust before purchasing new

[jamisonlm3]

My mortars are being shipped from pyroboom. I will hopefully have a few pics of my first rack build in a few weeks. I also promise not to make them from oak or maple.. I was pondering a nice dovetailed hardwood project with 11ga stainless dividers.. then kinda smacked myself back into reality.Dovetailed racks? Here, I thought my racks were fancy, but you'll be shooting pinky up. I thought about building my racks out of hardwood ply, but I went with pine. Keep them dry and they'll last years. Cheaper too.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

@Birdman - Next time you accidentally delete your entire post, try Ctrl-Z to get it back. It's saved my butt numerous times.

@Birdman and PyroKing31 - I'll do some digging when I get time and see if I can find that Chinese system. I know I bought four new 4 cue mods to expand the system, but I never used them. All of it is laying around somewhere in a box. I'll post some pics and if either of you is still interested, we'll work something out.

[PyroKing31]

@Birdman - Next time you accidentally delete your entire post, try Ctrl-Z to get it back. It's saved my butt numerous times.

@Birdman and PyroKing31 - I'll do some digging when I get time and see if I can find that Chinese system. I know I bought four new 4 cue mods to expand the system, but I never used them. All of it is laying around somewhere in a box. I'll post some pics and if either of you is still interested, we'll work something out.

Sounds good! Thanks Rick!

[MontanaMike]

Grab the Biluscon system on ebay. They have a 72 cue system which I have for $200.
If the guy wants to start off with a Cobra system, why would he want to go cheap? My first system was a Cobra and I'm very glad I didn't spend a couple hundred bucks on something I would have just wanted to replace later.

To the OP - If I were you, I would spend a few more bucks and get four, 18M modules instead of the 72M. This makes it easier to spread your show out farther (a wide stage looks better) and will cut down on how much wire you have to string.

For what it's worth - we have 3 different sizes of mortar racks (12, 18 and 36-tube racks) and none of them have spacers between the tubes. While that would be nice, I think as long as you make sure you always put your shells in correct-side-up, there's no need for the spacers with consumer shells.

We usually wire each "row" of our mortar racks into one cue, so normally three cues per rack. I sometimes leave the existing fuse on the shells, but other times I've replaced that fuse with quick-fuse. I normally run quick-fuse as my stringer so the shells in each row all go up in quick succession.

[displayfireworks1]

The pricing of the Cobra system has kept the cost of the import systems way down. I believe Scott at Cobra said historically many current Cobra uses started out with the import systems and will then purchase a Cobra once they advance into pyrotechnics.

[MontanaMike]

I first experimented with a 6-cue cheap-o Chinese system that I got from one of the big fireworks stores in Cheyenne, WY. It did not come with an instruction sheet. We wired it up, hit the buttons and .... nothing. So I set that system aside, thinking it was defective, and went back to hand-lighting fuses.

What I didn't know was, you had to hold-down the fire button for a couple of seconds to get the ignitors to work.... same as with Talons today. Years later when I got the Cobra system and read up on talons vs. E-match, it got me to wondering if maybe my China system was really defective or not. I plugged a few talons into it and it worked like a charm. So now we use it for black-sky-filler backups.

[zargnut]

So I did take advantage of the Black Friday sale. Got a nice cobra system. Ordered Daves CDs, and started the 5400 process.. Had a nice chat with Scott from American Pyro Assoc - and was advised that MD is a really horrible fireworks state.. So bad that none of the commercial companies reside in-state. There are no 1.3 magazines in state for contingency storage... And getting state license and permits is near impossible

Sigh.

I am going to join up with crackerjacks and enjoy some out of state events while I learn more and attend training. Maybe in a few years I will be able to get a shooter permit and move on in state.

I would love to hear a success story in State of MD... if there are any that exist.

dan

BTW - I made a 3d printed shield for a cobra 18s Parallel mini-slat if anyone would find it useful

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4052715

[Birdman]

You certainly won't be disappointed with the cobra. Looks like you plan on putting it to good use.