Advice needed on reply from ATF inspector before inspection

[PAClark]

I provided all documents including pictures, google maps documenting distances etc with my application. I did not list my spouse on the application, however, it appears they are asking me to list her for "joint landowner permission" purposes??? Here is what the inspector sent to me just now. I will be using 1.4 and wanting to use the 1.3 fireworks for private shows on my property and will not be selling, distributing, or manufacturing any product. I do not need an AR shooters license and/or the tax certification as I will not be an official business.

Mr. Clark,
I want to introduce myself as the investigator from ATF assigned to your FEL permit application.

As I reviewed your application, there are items listed below that will be needed before I am able to schedule our interview for your application.

First, an AR pyrotechnic shooter license is required. Please provide a copy of that license.

Also, I need clarification on the phone number ###wifes cell ####??? regarding whose number that is and whether it is a mobile or landline number.

Next, you should inquire with the State of Arkansas, Department of Finance and Administration and confirm whether a Sales and Use Tax certificate is needed for the services you will be providing when you are using the fireworks. Please forward their response and / or copy of the certificate when that is completed.

Similarly, you should inquire with Faulkner County and confirm whether a local occupation or privilege license is needed. Please forward their response and / or copy of the permit when that is completed.

Lastly, I will need a statement from ##my wife## as one of the joint property owners of #########my adddresss### regarding your requested FEL permit being designated at that property.



The content of the letter needs to include the following information:



Any terms of use such as a rental / lease agreement or a statement of no terms in place
Acknowledge that the property owner is aware that ATF will be doing unannounced periodic inspections on that property as part of the licensing requirement
The property will be used for the purpose of an explosives permit and there will be explosives / fireworks on the premises.

[PAClark]

My draft thus far. Please give me any input on what will be appropriate for those who have gone through this process...especially in Arkansas.

To: ###; ATF Investigator, Little Rock, Arkansas
From: #### Clark
Subject: FEL License Application

Thank you for your inquiry for further information concerning my application for a FEL/1.3 g license through the ATF. The following information was unfortunately left out of my application as I was not aware of its importance in the process. I will be purchasing and using 1.3g fireworks products for private/home personal displays each July 4th and will not be performing public displays off of my personal property at #### I will not be importing, selling, distributing, or manufacturing any 1.3 g products or explosives. However, an ATF approved Federal Explosives License is required for their purchase. Many of the items listed such as the shooters license and sales and tax certifications are not required, as this is not an official business and I am not performing for a company or for any profit for other parties.
1. Arkansas Pyrotechnic Shooter License ? is not required for myself as a private party as I will not be manufacturing, importing, distributing, or selling. 1.3 product. It will be for private use ? private fireworks displays for wife and myself. The fireworks (1.3g products) will only be used on my private property at #####, and not transported to other destinations for display.
2. Phone numbers ? my cell #####
3. I do not require a Sales and Tax Use Certification as we are not an official business and will not be importing, manufacturing, selling, or distributing product.
4. A County Occupation and Privilege license is not required as we are not an official business and will not be importing, manufacturing, selling, or distributing product. The 1.3 g products will be for private use by myself for personal display purposes.
5. We are the landowners of the property at ### as our primary residence is on the 20 acre property that we own and do not lease or rent. We are aware that the ATF will be doing unannounced periodic inspections on that property as part of the licensing requirement.

I will also be drafting a letter from my wife ---as joint landowner permitting this .....;-)

[esgrillo]

sounds like the inspector is being a dick. With all due respect of course :rolleyes:

Good reply however

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Sounds like you have it all covered. The only thing I would do is have both you AND your wife sign the response so there's no question that you both are aware of all the ATF requirements. Should save you from having to do a separate letter for her.

[PAClark]

Sounds like you have it all covered. The only thing I would do is have both you AND your wife sign the response so there's no question that you both are aware of all the ATF requirements. Should save you from having to do a separate letter for her.

Roger that Rick. I'll put a signature block on the bottom for her with another statement that she agrees with all of the above and is aware of the storage etc....

[displayfireworks1]

Who wants to guess what the next thing the inspector will try to get him to write or sign?

[PAClark]

Who wants to guess what the next thing the inspector will try to get him to write or sign?

No, no Dave, I will not be signing the Withdrawal. I already have my letter written up with repetitive annoying speak about personal display use and it's a full page of I no need for any of what you just asked for. I had my wife sign a full paragraph at the end as joint property owner. I'll fax it in tomorrow to keep this ball rolling.

[displayfireworks1]

My suggestion is not to write and send anything at this point. You want him to write and send. Not you. He needs to come to your property. Take a breather. Don't send any more written communication more than the application at this point.

[Arclight]

It's likely that you know the state and local law better than they do. I would look up the code sections now and be ready to provide a printout or link if required.

[displayfireworks1]

I'm getting flash backs of Texas and a few other states. They are not use to seeing advanced pyro enthusiast. He is trying to avoid coming out. Do not debate or send anything. When I'm back in town next week I'll help you with this. For now do nothing.

[PAClark]

I'm getting flash backs of Texas and a few other states. They are not use to seeing advanced pyro enthusiast. He is trying to avoid coming out. Do not debate or send anything. When I'm back in town next week I'll help you with this. For now do nothing.

Thank you Dave. I appreciate your advice. I followed your DVD exactly on forms and provided a plat map and photos with the application. I felt I went above and beyond, as well as with the magazine build. That part should pass with flying colors. Talk to you next week.

[esgrillo]

I'm getting flash backs of Texas and a few other states. They are not use to seeing advanced pyro enthusiast. He is trying to avoid coming out. Do not debate or send anything. When I'm back in town next week I'll help you with this. For now do nothing.

Dave you are right. The inspector without doubt knows that to get the 54 you do not need a state license. He is just attempting to get him withdraw by piling on BS. My guy tried the same thing over the phone with me here in TX as you remember.

[PAClark]

Dave you are right. The inspector without doubt knows that to get the 54 you do not need a state license. He is just attempting to get him withdraw by piling on BS. My guy tried the same thing over the phone with me here in TX as you remember.

Esgrillo--- so you just held the line and waited for them to come out to your property? Did you have a magazine for inspection as well? I just don't want to piss them off by not responding at all and getting a pissed off vengeful investigator that will deny me a license and not approve my magazine (which is by the book awesome).

[esgrillo]

Esgrillo--- so you just held the line and waited for them to come out to your property? Did you have a magazine for inspection as well? I just don't want to piss them off by not responding at all and getting a pissed off vengeful investigator that will deny me a license and not approve my magazine (which is by the book awesome).

PAC, in my case the information was all shared over the phone before he came out. I never submitted anything besides the application. In your case if there is truly a clerical error of with phone #s etc I would address that per Daves input.

I do know one thing however, when the inspector starts with the flat out lie, "First, an AR pyrotechnic shooter license is required. Please provide a copy of that license." I certainly lose all faith that whatever he follows after that is not additional lies. In TX you can not even shoot 1.3 anywhere without a license, permit, and insurance so that is the roadblock they put up to dissuade you from moving forward. However none of that has anything to do with getting a federal license.

I do not have a magazine. I used contingency. The inspector also tried that avenue to attempt to deny/make me withdraw..... I did not allow that to happen.

You should be cordial of course but it does sounds like he intentionally putting up false roadblocks... IMHO

[BMoore]

Definitely follow Dave's advice, but perhaps we should give the ATF inspector the benefit of the doubt. If he hasn't dealt much with fireworks licensing and his only information is the application, he may very well assume that your intent is to start a display company. If I were to respond I think I'd just make a brief statement that this is for personal use, not a business, not in commerce, private us on private property, etc. I'd follow that with with the statement "Based on the above circumstances I believe you will find your additional requirements are unnecessary. If you are in disagreement, please furnish me the relevant FEDERAL statutes/regulations substantiating your requests."

[Mattp]

I 100% agree with the advice given.. hold off on that letter... and if Dave can help you out. Even better!! Sounds like you already said to much.. and provided unnecessary documents.. where you live and with whom. Should not even be a concern.. what if you wanted this permit to solely shoot at pyro club events.. I live in NY on a 60x100 property in a densely populated place. . there will be no storing or shooting of of anything here.. it is solely my residence.

[PAClark]

I 100% agree with the advice given.. hold off on that letter... and if Dave can help you out. Even better!! Sounds like you already said to much.. and provided unnecessary documents.. where you live and with whom. Should not even be a concern.. what if you wanted this permit to solely shoot at pyro club events.. I live in NY on a 60x100 property in a densely populated place. . there will be no storing or shooting of of anything here.. it is solely my residence.

I completed the ATF FEL application forms exactly as required and provided a plat map as required. I did not give my wifes or further information, though the are government, and just did some minor investigation. I am holding off for now and doing my homework. None of what the investigator asked for is required to obtain the Type 54 license through the ATF.

[Arclight]

My ATF investigator asked for a copy of my lease, since I do not own the property the magazines are on. I believe they are within their scope to check public ownership records or other documents to make sure you control the property listed on the application. I know that they will also check the status of your corporation or LLC if that is on the app.

That being said, I have heard from at least one blaster that the ATF has become more interested in non-ATF matters, like DOT, MSHA and other rules they aren't in charge of.

The situation above sounds a bit like being a "not for hire" semi-truck owner. It's fully legal to do this, but you're going to get some questions from authorities that don't understand why you're doing this and assume it's some sort of under-the-table business.

[Mattp]

Ohhh,, gotcha,, I don?t have my own storage, so I guess that changes the requirements/ process a little. Because I did not have to include any of that.. but from the stories I heard, and read on here seems like everyone?s process goes a little differently... good luck!! I?m sure it will work out!

[PAClark]

They called me last night making sure I received the e-mail and wanted to get this done fast as they had openings and extra time right now. She seemed nice and helpful though she stated she would not be able to advance my appliication any further without the information requested. She also stated the Arkansas Shooters License was non negotiable and required. I tried not to debate as Dave advised but told her that was incorrect as I am not in the "business" of fireworks and not performing sposored or professional displays. I told her the FEL application sent to her allows me to purchase 1.3g product and no other state certification or permit is required. She stated she would have to check "with her higher ups" and she wants to have another contact this coming week to work it out.

[displayfireworks1]

There are only 16 ATF User of Display Fireworks in Arkansas. If you keep talking on that phone it will stay at 16. If you want to try to make that number 17 give me that information I sent you in a PM. Stop all communication on this board and the phone , answer that PM

[joewad]

There are only 16 ATF User of Display Fireworks in Arkansas. If you keep talking on that phone it will stay at 16. If you want to try to make that number 17 give me that information I sent you in a PM. Stop all communication on this board and the phone , answer that PM

Enough characters to meet the minimum requirement.

4484

[Rick_In_Tampa]

It's fully legal to do this, but you're going to get some questions from authorities that don't understand why you're doing this and assume it's some sort of under-the-table business.

That's like a car salesman making you prove you're not going to use the car to rob banks before he agrees to sell you the car. The truth is, it's none of his damn business what you plan to use the car for! If you meet the financial requirements and if you have a drivers license, then he needs to STFU and sell you the car. Period.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Enough characters to meet the minimum requirement.

4484

Lol.. I love it when Dave gets all warm and fuzzy. :cool:

[Crush630]

You learned the two greatest thing in life, never rat on your friends, and always keep your mouth shut.

-Robert De Niro

[Arclight]

That's like a car salesman making you prove you're not going to use the car to rob banks before he agrees to sell you the car. The truth is, it's none of his damn business what you plan to use the car for! If you meet the financial requirements and if you have a drivers license, then he needs to STFU and sell you the car. Period.

If it makes you feel better, my state and local authorities bascially ask anyone doing ATF-regulated activities whether they want a driver's license for driving to work or driving to school, and for what color of car. They get weird about someone who plans to drive more than one color of car and possibly to locations that aren't on the list.

[joewad]

If it makes you feel better, my state and local authorities bascially ask anyone doing ATF-regulated activities whether they want a driver's license for driving to work or driving to school, and for what color of car. They get weird about someone who plans to drive more than one color of car and possibly to locations that aren't on the list.

A sad example of your tax dollars at work......sorry

[Rick_In_Tampa]

If it makes you feel better, my state and local authorities bascially ask anyone doing ATF-regulated activities whether they want a driver's license for driving to work or driving to school, and for what color of car. They get weird about someone who plans to drive more than one color of car and possibly to locations that aren't on the list.

Actually it doesn't make me feel better. It just reaffirms the notion that a little power left in the hands of those with little brains and big egos will tend to abuse that power. Yours is just one more example.

[displayfireworks1]

Just to update , this is still in limbo and we did not forget about it. Remember an advanced fireworks enthusiast to this degree is something new to the ATF in some states. However, since it is a Federal procedure , the regulations and requirements are universal across the United States. Even in Arkansas , Texas , New York, Ohio Tennessee etc We just keep adding to that list. It is not contingent upon state shooter certificates, stats business tax ID requirements etc. The problem is. they will make you believe it is in some areas of the country. We am hoping to add Arkansas to that growing list soon on this application.

[ARK_PYRO]

I live in Arkansas, applied for my 54. I did not have one issue or problem with the process. When the inspector called to setup the interview they, yes 2, actually came to my office and met with me there. I do have a AR shooters card, which technically required to do both private and public displays in Arkansas. The Arkansas State Fire Marshal which is under the Arkansas State Police requires for a $25 permit to be pulled with all displays, to pull the permit you are required to have a AR shooters card.
Just to update , this is still in limbo and we did not forget about it. Remember an advanced fireworks enthusiast to this degree is something new to the ATF in some states. However, since it is a Federal procedure , the regulations and requirements are universal across the United States. Even in Arkansas , Texas , New York, Ohio Tennessee etc We just keep adding to that list. It is not contingent upon state shooter certificates, stats business tax ID requirements etc. The problem is. they will make you believe it is in some areas of the country. We am hoping to add Arkansas to that growing list soon on this application.

[displayfireworks1]

At ARK_Pyro. You do not need to state the exact town, Curious how many miles do you live from Little Rock and in what direction? Those shooter certificates at the state level all have value, and are certainly worth pursuing, they are not necessarily prerequisites to applying for the ATF Fireworks license. If we have our way, all of that is about to change in the State of Arkansas at the Little Rock ATF office going forward.

[ARK_PYRO]

Dave, I live about 1 hr drive from Little Rock. Yes, the state is not required for the ATF, but it is required for any "displays" done in the state. I know most that AHJs are not enforcing it, but it gives them the option.

[displayfireworks1]

Curious if that state shooter certificate in Arkansas requires an apprenticeship or a sign off by an establish display company. For example is it you have to work X number of shows AND pass the written test. Or, is it take this test pass or fail and you are done? If I had a complaint against a state shooter certificate it would be, it places control on the future of pyrotechnics in that state on the established display companies in that state.

[ARK_PYRO]

Here is the application for the State of Arkansas
https://static.ark.org/eeuploads/asp/state_fire_marshal_pyrotechnic_shooter_application _04252019_(2).pdf

Curious if that state shooter certificate in Arkansas requires an apprenticeship or a sign off by an establish display company. For example is it you have to work X number of shows AND pass the written test. Or, is it take this test pass or fail and you are done? If I had a complaint against a state shooter certificate it would be, it places control on the future of pyrotechnics in that state on the established display companies in that state.

[displayfireworks1]

On the application it ask for Pyrotechnic School Attended? I do see some display companies offering classes by "approved instructors". I can not find any information on how to become an approved instructor in the State of Arkansas or surrounding states. I would love to know what criteria they use. I also can not find how to become an approved pyrotechnic "School". If I reverse engineer this thing , I look at the total number of ATF license in that state and assume its more a recruitment for the display companies as opposed to a school to train for private ATF license holder displays, and/or its poorly advertised. LOL Do you have any more "School" links from the State of Arkansas ? Also that NFPA 1123 is pretty slick, they get that document signed into law and in turn sell it with no competition.

[ARK_PYRO]

Dave, you mentioned an exact number of ATF 54 holders here in Arkansas. Is that public knowledge and if so how can I see the list?

[displayfireworks1]

I posted it when I talked about my ATF information appeal. Here it is again. .
.
http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/showthread.php?6850-My-ATF-Information-Appeal&p=61723&highlight=appeal

[PAClark]

Here is the application for the State of Arkansas
https://static.ark.org/eeuploads/asp/state_fire_marshal_pyrotechnic_shooter_application _04252019_(2).pdf

I'm scheduled with Rainbow Fireworks in Kansas to take their Pyrotechnics shooters class 2 November. Ark Pyro--- is this going to fulfill the requirement to obtain my shooters license...or do I need some sort of other training, number of shoots, or other requirement/training under my belt before the state gives me a license? It has "Last 5 times you've observed a licensed shooter" on the application but doesn't specifically list a requirement?

[ARK_PYRO]

PAClark---PM sent

I'm scheduled with Rainbow Fireworks in Kansas to take their Pyrotechnics shooters class 2 November. Ark Pyro--- is this going to fulfill the requirement to obtain my shooters license...or do I need some sort of other training, number of shoots, or other requirement/training under my belt before the state gives me a license? It has "Last 5 times you've observed a licensed shooter" on the application but doesn't specifically list a requirement?

[Passamj20]

It’s been a while and I read through the post, has there been any changes to the status? Did the number grow to 17?

[PAClark]

It’s been a while and I read through the post, has there been any changes to the status? Did the number grow to 17?

Inspection and interview went very well. I'm currently on week 3 of waiting for the license after the investigator filed the package. She noted 3-4 weeks and then I'll be posting and updating once I obtain my license officially. Thank for checking!

[PAClark]

Inspection and interview went very well. I'm currently on week 3 of waiting for the license after the investigator filed the package. She noted 3-4 weeks and then I'll be posting and updating once I obtain my license officially. Thank for checking!

WELL, IT'S OFFICIALLY 17 IN ARKANSAS!!! I received my license in the mail today! Woohoooo!!! A bit of hard work on the magazine, paperwork, interview and some time went into it. I am very happy to enter this next stage and excited to be part of the 1.3g club. I'd like to personally thank Dave and Ark Pyro for all their help and advise throughout the process. Having an experienced/licensed person to consult and advise you through the process helps a great deal!

[IndianaPH]

Congrats!!

[joewad]

I forecast "boomers" in Arkansas this New Years

[PAClark]

I forecast "boomers" in Arkansas this New Years

Oh yes indeed. I recently got a good supply of mortar tubes from Platte River and will get some racks together soon! Check them out for supplies. They have good prices and fast shipping!

[Arclight]

Nice work! It's an uphill road being the only <whatever type of licensee> in your area but worth it.

[Passamj20]

That’s awesome!!! Glad to hear

[cherrybomb1]

Oh yes indeed. I recently got a good supply of mortar tubes from Platte River and will get some racks together soon! Check them out for supplies. They have good prices and fast shipping!

Russ is a great guy to do business with...luckily I'm less then 2 hours south of them and can run up there and pick my mortars up and not have to pay shipping.

[displayfireworks1]

At PaClark I'm curious did you consider pyroboom when you made your mortar purchase?

[PAClark]

At PaClark I'm curious did you consider pyroboom when you made your mortar purchase?

I did, but Platte River had lower prices for the 3", and 5" mortar tubes. (4" was the same) It was quite a bit cheaper with shipping and the number of tubes I bought.

[displayfireworks1]

I see, I know you have some carpentry skills. Once you build a few racks, would be great to see what you come up with. You may have mentioned it in prior post, do you have a wireless fireworks firing system?

[PAClark]

I see, I know you have some carpentry skills. Once you build a few racks, would be great to see what you come up with. You may have mentioned it in prior post, do you have a wireless fireworks firing system?

I have a lot off consumer mortar racks for my canister shells that I built in 50 count boxes that are HEAVY and tried to stay light and mobile with these. I got started on the rack builds immediately after receiving my license. I built these 3, 4, and 5 inch racks this weekend. I'm just working out the mounting/securing options such as rebar etc.

http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=4612&stc=1http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=4613&stc=1http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=4614&stc=1http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=4615&stc=1

[PAClark]

Sorry my pics came out sideways ---- they were straight on my computer?