type 4 indoor job box

[MCpyro]

well after a lot of hours digging for contingency storage in the less than 150 mile range i found no willing parties....sooo
http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=4458&stc=1
http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=4460&stc=1
http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=4459&stc=1
let the fun begin :D

if anyone has suggestion before i begin coating the inside feel free to share

[Fire Art]

Don't know if those locks will be approved. Need to be at least a 5 pin lock. Do they require hoods for the locks on a job box?

[displayfireworks1]

Pull a key out before you open the entire package. Count the key using this illustration. I heard that is how the ATF determines the pin count.
.
https://media.boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/bump-key.gif

[MCpyro]

Don't know if those locks will be approved. Need to be at least a 5 pin lock. Do they require hoods for the locks on a job box?


no you dont need a hood over because the lock is already incased


Pull a key out before you open the entire package. Count the key using this illustration. I heard that is how the ATF determines the pin count.
.
https://media.boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/bump-key.gif

thanks for the heads up ill go look now

[IndianaPH]

MCpyro, I just looked up the lock package that you show and they appear to be 4pin tumblers. Your locks will need to be 5 pin. Master lock #17 are what I used. I also pulled the plastic plugs out of the bottom and replaced them with steel knock out plugs.

You can see my box here: My Magazine (http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/showthread.php?7465-Mailed-Application-Today-amp-Have-A-Couple-of-Questions&highlight=application+today+couple+questions)

[MCpyro]

you're right i went out and checked and they are 4 pin, good thing i have the receipt. off to home depot i go

[Arclight]

If you have some time, I recommend looking into the ABUS rekeyable padlocks. I have the 83/80 (their biggest model) on my magazines, and they can be purchased with 5 or 6 pin cores that match Schlage and a bunch of other common keyways. You can also install high-security cylinders like Medeco if you really want. And a locksmith can even key them up so that you have matching (or master-keyed) locks on your gate, shed, etc. that leads to the magazine.

[Arclight]

Link to the ABUS line:

https://www.abus.com/us/Protect-What-You-Love/83-Series-R-Padlocks

[cherrybomb1]

well after a lot of hours digging for contingency storage in the less than 150 mile range i found no willing parties....sooo
http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=4458&stc=1
http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=4460&stc=1
http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=4459&stc=1
let the fun begin :D

if anyone has suggestion before i begin coating the inside feel free to share
If you can wait a 3 or 4 days try Mrlock.com they have American lock A50 for $14.07 a piece 5 tumbler...they work perfect I’ve bought 4 of them for my job boxes.44614461

[cherrybomb1]

[QUOTE=cherrybomb1;61757]If you can wait a 3 or 4 days try Mrlock.com they have American lock A50 for $14.07 a piece 5 tumbler...they work perfect I’ve bought 4 of them for my job boxes.44614461[/QUOTE Someday I’ll figure this Sh#% out4462

[jasonmramsey]

I know that there is a possibility of getting scolded for this question but here goes...

I too cannot find contingency storage anywhere near me so it has put the Type 54 license on hold. The question is... this type of storage has to be in an exterior building, correct? Meaning you can't just drop this in the basement garage right? I have looked at the attached...
https://www.atf.gov/explosives/docs/guide/publication-explosives-magazine-construction-requirements-atf-p-540017/download
...and I don't see it specifically listed.

[IndianaPH]

I know that there is a possibility of getting scolded for this question but here goes...

I too cannot find contingency storage anywhere near me so it has put the Type 54 license on hold. The question is... this type of storage has to be in an exterior building, correct? Meaning you can't just drop this in the basement garage right? I have looked at the attached...
https://www.atf.gov/explosives/docs/guide/publication-explosives-magazine-construction-requirements-atf-p-540017/download
...and I don't see it specifically listed.

Type IV Indoor storage needs to be in a structure that is detached from an inhabited building. (From page 16 - Inhabited Building. Any building regularly occupied in whole or in part as a habitation for human beings, or any church, schoolhouse, railroad station, store, or other structure where people are accustomed to assemble, except any building occupied in connection with the manufacture, transportation, storage, or use of explosive materials.). Now, from what I have seen, the term structure can be open to interpretation. If you search the threads on this site, you will see various "structures" that contain these types of magazines.

Now, with that being said, my understanding (through reading the orange book and discussions with my inspector) is that the type of box that MCpyro has shown in this thread could also be installed outside and could be approved as a Type IV magazine if the tables of distances and the rest of the requirements are met. Read through 555.210 on page 52 of the orange book.

With all of that being said and not that I would want to do it, but the regulations seem to open up the possibility to be granted a variance to store in a residence. ATF Ruling 2002-3 on page 77 discusses this.

[Arclight]

There are boxes specifically made to contain 100% of a blast should the material ignite. They're usually installed outside, but can be right next to the building. I'm sure variances are pretty straightforward to get for these "ready-made" products. I think they're marketed to testing labs, bomb squads, etc. Unfortunately, they are pretty expensive.

[PennSteve]

MCpyro, which locks did you wind up going with, and where did you find them? I'm looking to follow in your footsteps, and the Nr. 17 Master Locks no longer appear to be available.

[Arclight]

I believe that the American A50 lock is also listed in the instructions for many of these Job Boxes as an acceptable alternative. You can also get a rekeyable variation of this, and even one that takes standard Schlage keys, so that your building, gate, etc. can have a matching key or a master key system.

[PennSteve]

Thanks Arclight!

I did see cherrybomb1's post about the American A50 lock in this thread, as well as the Abus 83/80 that you mentioned. I'm concerned about them fitting this specific job box, because the clearances for the locks look pretty tight. In one of the (really good) YouTube videos that another user shared, he mentioned having to cut the rubber trim off of his Master Lock. And in the Home Depot comments, there's plenty of discussion of locks not fitting. So I'm hoping someone can confirm a specific lock that both fits this Ridgid 48 x 24 box AND meets ATF requirements.

Anyone?

[YorkPyro]

Can someone clarify or just confirm that I am understanding the "ruling" for Weight limits in indoor magazines? The weight limit is 50lbs and you can have more than one magazine but still the weight limit is 50lbs between the both of them? or is it 50lbs per magazine?

I am taking it that the combined weight of all indoor magazines can still not exceed 50lbs. But if someone can confirm my interpretations or clarify I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you!

[cherrybomb1]

Can someone clarify or just confirm that I am understanding the "ruling" for Weight limits in indoor magazines? The weight limit is 50lbs and you can have more than one magazine but still the weight limit is 50lbs between the both of them? or is it 50lbs per magazine?

I am taking it that the combined weight of all indoor magazines can still not exceed 50lbs. But if someone can confirm my interpretations or clarify I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you!
Your correct...if there in the same building or shed it’s 50lbs total weight per building also 1.3 ignighters have to be in there own job box

[YorkPyro]

Your correct...if there in the same building or shed it’s 50lbs total weight per building also 1.3 ignighters have to be in there own job box

Awesome Thank you! Also Thank you for adding the part about the igniters. I was taking that as they could be in the same magazine, but wasn't sure if they counted as weight.

[YorkPyro]

I have a question regarding this video. Having the magazine in the shell would that make it now and an "indoor" magazine, since it is in its own shell? and could you do the same thing right beside it and not have to shall the weight limits between the 2 magazines? Or would this still be considered an outdoor magazine and follow the outdoor magazine requirements? I know lots of questions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZyKhfimxHY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZyKhfimxHY

[Mattp]

I have a question regarding this video. Having the magazine in the shell would that make it now and an "indoor" magazine, since it is in its own shell? and could you do the same thing right beside it and not have to shall the weight limits between the 2 magazines? Or would this still be considered an outdoor magazine and follow the outdoor magazine requirements? I know lots of questions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZyKhfimxHY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZyKhfimxHY

i havent thumbed throught the orange book in a while.. but all of your answers are in there... pretty sure there is a minimum distance requirement between the two magazines for them to be counted as separate... i want to say 50'.. but dont quote that... check the orange book... also i dont know if that plastic garbage pail bin would be considered a shed... pretty sure the building needs to have certain construction requirements as well... but again .. all answers are in the orange book

[Arclight]

If you have multiple magazines next to each other, they will count them as one for purposes of how much product you can store.

So if you have 3 of these "indoor" magazines in a row of small shelters, you could store 150lbs of product, and the table of distances would treat this as one magazine of the total product net explosive weight. Look at Table 219:

https://www.atf.gov/explosives/table-distances##555.219

JN

[Mattp]

If you have multiple magazines next to each other, they will count them as one for purposes of how much product you can store.

So if you have 3 of these "indoor" magazines in a row of small shelters, you could store 150lbs of product, and the table of distances would treat this as one magazine of the total product net explosive weight. Look at Table 219:

https://www.atf.gov/explosives/table-distances##555.219

JN

My memory is pretty good!!!LOL ... 50'

[YorkPyro]

Thank you Mattp and Arclight!!!

[gnavarr]

i havent thumbed throught the orange book in a while.. but all of your answers are in there... pretty sure there is a minimum distance requirement between the two magazines for them to be counted as separate... i want to say 50'.. but dont quote that... check the orange book... also i dont know if that plastic garbage pail bin would be considered a shed... pretty sure the building needs to have certain construction requirements as well... but again .. all answers are in the orange book

I'm in the process of doing the whole "type 4 magazine out of a job box" deal and, after reviewing the paragraph for an indoor type 4 a million times, it doesn't state ANY specifications on the structure containing the type 4 magazine other than it can't be in an inhabited dwelling and that if the structure is weather resistant then the magazine itself doesn't have to be. Besides those two details, there's nothing else about construction requirements of whatever is housing an indoor type 4. If anyone has found something different could you please cite the page number? Appreciate all the help.

[yoshisbar]

at gnavarr, did you watch my video on dave's youtube? (Your own fireworks magazine). You are right that is pretty much all the requirements for the building, as I read the structure also has no lock requirements (but that's your choice, I have 3 locks on my building and 2 on the magazine). Where it gets complicated is the magazine itself, It has VERY specific requirements that need to be met, and also the ATF agent may want something else (mounted, painted, coated, plywood) depends on the inspector.. There is a section in the orange book in the back that SPECIFICALLY deals with these job boxes, it is under the revisions ATF ruling 2011-3 page 94 That's where you will get the most problems if you don't follow what they want to see. The building is just a building that is not occupied...could be 10 feet from your door or you neighbors door..

[gnavarr]

at gnavarr, did you watch my video on dave's youtube? (Your own fireworks magazine). You are right that is pretty much all the requirements for the building, as I read the structure also has no lock requirements (but that's your choice, I have 3 locks on my building and 2 on the magazine). Where it gets complicated is the magazine itself, It has VERY specific requirements that need to be met, and also the ATF agent may want something else (mounted, painted, coated, plywood) depends on the inspector.. There is a section in the orange book in the back that SPECIFICALLY deals with these job boxes, it is under the revisions ATF ruling 2011-3 page 94 That's where you will get the most problems if you don't follow what they want to see. The building is just a building that is not occupied...could be 10 feet from your door or you neighbors door..

Hey, Yoshibar, I appreciate the response. I've watched a bunch of videos on using the job box and I'm 99.9% certain I've seen yours, so I have the gist down on making a compliant type 4 magazine. It was the matter of specs for the structure that would be housing the magazine I was unsure of. Given that the orange book gives no requirements other than what I said then to me the plastic garbage can storage used as a structure in the video quoted above would be able to classify the magazine as "indoor." I just wanted to make sure I didn't miss requirements of the structure related to its construction even though I've gone through the orange book more times than I can count just to make sure there weren't any.

[Arclight]

The question is more what ISN'T an enclosed structure for ATF purposes. Once it's considered indoor, each magazine is limited to 50lbs.

So people regularly pass inspection of their outdoor mags with a sunshade over them or a fence enclosing the area. But I asked ATF if I would be able to place a type II magazine in the back of a shipping container to give it some weather protection and security, and they said it would be classified as indoor at that point. Maybe it has to do with fire risk or extra material that could become shrapnel if there was an accident.

[Mattp]

i just read though it all too, multiple times... i dont see that either... at all... it does not give a definition for a building.. only for "inhabited building" ... personally, i wouldn't call a plastic bin a structure or building...but there is no definition that i can find stating otherwise!!!... sorry if my last statement made you go crazy.. LOL.

[gnavarr]

Appreciate all the input. I'm asking all these questions because in reality my only option is to have an indoor magazine, because I don't have the space that would be in compliance with the distance tables of an outdoor magazine. Since nothing is specified on dimensions/material for a structure, and I'm limited with space, is why I'm even entertaining the idea of using something like that plastic container above.

[yoshisbar]

gnavarr do you have a garage?

[gnavarr]

gnavarr do you have a garage?

I do but it’s not detached from the rest of my house.

[yoshisbar]

Well there you go, What I would do, (and just my opinion and experience) BEFORE you do any paperwork, spend money ect. Call your local ATF office that would be doing the inspection. Say "hey could I do this (in my garage, plastic clamshell outside my garage or whatever) See what they say, no harm to ask, more info if they say no. You can put a mag in a attached garage to your house, hell I have seen people approved for their BASeMENT, as long as the approve it. I have a business up the street from me that has a mag IN A STORE within 75 ft of a railroad and a main road that I could store my stuff in if I want to, just to say ask! all they can say is no. But gives you the info, but most times it gets approved. Just come down to who you are dealing with..

[Mattp]

I came across this by accident.. but is talking about this exactly... and gives you a specificl link of where to address these questions too. https://www.atf.gov/explosives/docs/newsletter/explosives-industry-newsletter-july-2017/download

[gnavarr]

I came across this by accident.. but is talking about this exactly... and gives you a specificl link of where to address these questions too. https://www.atf.gov/explosives/docs/newsletter/explosives-industry-newsletter-july-2017/download

Thanks so much for the link!