Noob E Firing questions

[PyroGyro]

FYI I have been fusing my shows with nothing but slow visco/fast fuse in one giant daisy chain for years, but this is getting very old. This year I had about 60 cakes, nevermind the mortar racks. I want to move to E firing. I want to improve my timing but I'm not sure I need perfect sync. At the same time I don't want to spend all day on show day wiring so keep that in mind. I have a bunch of questions about stuff.

Talons vs E match

I have read that Talons are unreliable. Is this true? I like the idea of using Talons because they're easy to connect, and less dangerous than E match. For example I could prewire the show from my basement using Talons and not fear that leaving all that product prewired in my basement for a week or two is risky. Further, while I do know that you can use special clips to join E match to Visco I'm not so sure that is super reliable and also, really if you're going to use E Match it sounds to me like you want to be poking your cakes as well for better timing. I don't want to be poking cakes the day of my show, and I'm not sure it's a good idea to poke and wire cakes with E match and then leave my show in the basement. The idea that an E Match inside a poked cake could instantly ignite a cake scares me. Bottom line....I want to improve my timings by a lot next year but show setup time day of show is important, and safety is important.

This past year I built all my boards and prefused 90% of the show in my basement prior to show day. I would like to be able to do that again as much as possible next year with E firing, as the idea of spending 8 hours on July 4th setting up the show is not going to work. I want to be able to take a bunch of prewired platforms with labels for each cue on each cake, and then just have to worry about which wire goes to what cue on the firing system.

Thoughts? Ideas?

[MtnViewPyro]

Last year I had a lot of family health issues and was unable to do my show. I had everything ready with ematch inserted into my cakes, effects, and shells. The entire show remained this way in my garage until this year when I was able to have the show. People my tell you it’s dangerous, but if you keep the wire bunting sleeve on and avoid doing anything to your fireworks that you would already avoid doing, you are safe to prewire long before your show.

As far as talons, one year I used all talons connected to visco for twelve ques. They worked flawless. Same year, I used talons for my new year show, and the majority of the talons didn’t work. I avoid them as much as I can now. If I do use them, I fire a few off in the batch to see if the batch is good.

I’m still green to much of this, but I’m sure most will agree about the talons at least.

[Robbro097]

Im a firewire person as mtnview said keep ends shunted. I generally dont wire a show until the week of but purchasing 1.4 pro stuff this year i have several different items that came pre matched and as far between poking or connecting to visco i always poke all my 500s. (I dont 200s because i shoot way too many at a time) theyr is nothing like pressing a button and having instant ignition. And i promise you after poking a few its not near as time consuming as youd think it really goes quick and if theyr a fun part of setup itd b that.

[esgrillo]

I used to use a lot of talons but the quality dropped a lot recently and I dont use them anymore. I tested each one before and after fusing with an ohm meter and up to 2 yrs ago the resistance was consistent but 2 yrs ago the variability got so wide (like a factor of 100 difference on some) I just switch to ematch.

There are plenty of opinions about wiring ahead of time with MJG but just consider this. Some 1.4 AP product comes prematched from China. That is all.

[PyroGyro]

Last year I had a lot of family health issues and was unable to do my show. I had everything ready with ematch inserted into my cakes, effects, and shells. The entire show remained this way in my garage until this year when I was able to have the show. People my tell you it’s dangerous, but if you keep the wire bunting sleeve on and avoid doing anything to your fireworks that you would already avoid doing, you are safe to prewire long before your show.

As far as talons, one year I used all talons connected to visco for twelve ques. They worked flawless. Same year, I used talons for my new year show, and the majority of the talons didn’t work. I avoid them as much as I can now. If I do use them, I fire a few off in the batch to see if the batch is good.

I’m still green to much of this, but I’m sure most will agree about the talons at least.

Good to know, especially about the E match and leaving it prewired in your garage. I have read elsewhere to avoid this, but it was from only one source and I wouldn't necessarily consider them the end all be all source on pyro. Still, the idea of poking cakes and inserting E match, even if not really that dangerous, takes a little more time and I'm not sure I want to or need to do that for 70 cakes. So that's my dilemma. Go poke and E match or go Talon with no poke. Those E match to Visco clips don't look like they would be all that reliable because Visco takes a lot to fire compared to powder inside of a lift charge and I'd worry about the E match not being enough to light the Visco.

[krayg]

I used up all the remaining talons I had this year and went to initiators. I used about 200 last year. The wire that heats up is so thin on the talons that I was always worried I would break it or push it off to the side when attaching them to the fuse. The resistance on the talons were never consistent either so again I was worried they wouldn't work properly. In the end they usually worked just fine though. The biggest negative I had with the talons was getting continuity on the modules. No matter how I rolled the wire to increase the surface space it was always a pain trying to get continuity with some talons. I spent an extra 15min this year fiddling with one that I couldn't get a consistent continuity. The wires are really thin.

I only went through 200 MJG initiators this 4th but I prefer them. The resistance was consistent (I tested every one) and I didn't have to fold the wires to get continuity...even though I did in the end to avoid issues. Poking cakes and leaving the initiators in them was a concern but I did 70 and left them in the garage for a week without any issues. Wires were shunted and the sleeves were on. The shroud was always left covering the initiator. The immediate ignition for the cakes was a welcome biproduct of poking. It was my first time poking and went through a couple tubes but you learn quickly. I also learned how to chain a bunch of cakes by sticking the chained quick fuse for the rest in the lift of the first one that was poked. In the end, zero issues with items firing from poked cakes, to ematch ports on dominator products, to taping a 45-degree cut quick fuse to the initiator shroud.

[esgrillo]

Good to know, especially about the E match and leaving it prewired in your garage. I have read elsewhere to avoid this, but it was from only one source and I wouldn't necessarily consider them the end all be all source on pyro. Still, the idea of poking cakes and inserting E match, even if not really that dangerous, takes a little more time and I'm not sure I want to or need to do that for 70 cakes. So that's my dilemma. Go poke and E match or go Talon with no poke. Those E match to Visco clips don't look like they would be all that reliable because Visco takes a lot to fire compared to powder inside of a lift charge and I'd worry about the E match not being enough to light the Visco.

In all honestly the way I did it with checking resistance 2x comparing to poking and not having to worry about continuity checks it is a toss up time wise at least for me. Poking is fast. Just find the fuse, cut any excess cardboard away, and poke right where the fuse goes in. Stick the match with the shroud in and tape. I can do it in under 60 sec. When you add all the check time with talon it may be more. If you skip checking talons, get ready to rip a bunch off and redo them shoot day which is not recommended of course (at least IMO)

[esgrillo]

I used up all the remaining talons I had this year and went to initiators. I used about 200 last year. The wire that heats up is so thin on the talons that I was always worried I would break it or push it off to the side when attaching them to the fuse. The resistance on the talons were never consistent either so again I was worried they wouldn't work properly. In the end they usually worked just fine though. The biggest negative I had with the talons was getting continuity on the modules. No matter how I rolled the wire to increase the surface space it was always a pain trying to get continuity with some talons. I spent an extra 15min this year fiddling with one that I couldn't get a consistent continuity. The wires are really thin.

I only went through 200 MJG initiators this 4th but I prefer them. The resistance was consistent (I tested every one) and I didn't have to fold the wires to get continuity...even though I did in the end to avoid issues. Poking cakes and leaving the initiators in them was a concern but I did 70 and left them in the garage for a week without any issues. Wires were shunted and the sleeves were on. The shroud was always left covering the initiator. The immediate ignition for the cakes was a welcome biproduct of poking. It was my first time poking and went through a couple tubes but you learn quickly. I also learned how to chain a bunch of cakes by sticking the chained quick fuse for the rest in the lift of the first one that was poked. In the end, zero issues with items firing from poked cakes, to ematch ports on dominator products, to taping a 45-degree cut quick fuse to the initiator shroud.

btw I did the same. I daisy chained a bunch of fuse on taped together cakes all lit by one ematch. Works fine.

[krayg]

btw I did the same. I daisy chained a bunch of fuse on taped together cakes all lit by one ematch. Works fine.

I saw a video online of someone stuffing the initiator and the quick fuse into the lift of the first one and decided to give it a try. I'm glad it worked because it saved having to poke the remaining cakes. I'm sure it did too with your 120 bump bears.

[BeerGuyEd]

Those E match to Visco clips don't look like they would be all that reliable because Visco takes a lot to fire compared to powder inside of a lift charge and I'd worry about the E match not being enough to light the Visco.

To this point specifically I used several of the clips in my show this year and had 0 issues. I asked about these clips in another thread before using them and no one ever had a problem with the clips. If you watch the video of how to install them and follow that process they will work great and do not pull apart from the visco either.

As for pre-wiring everything I also asked the same question and got the same responses you have. I poked the cakes for my show (~70 cakes) in about 2 hours. It was my first time ever ripping paper off a cake much less cutting the cardboard to poke directly into the tube. It's easy and fast and the instant lift is great for timing your show.

I also do not see a big difference in safety between pre-wiring Talons, or MJG/ematches (with or without the clips). Just because the igniter is in the lift charge does not raise the chances it fires off accidentally. The only difference is if it lights up the visco you have a few seconds to react if you happen to be messing with it at that particular time.

[MtnViewPyro]

Some 1.4 AP product comes prematched from China. That is all.

esgrillo, aka Ed, aka PyroLord, brings up a very important point. There are tons of 1.4pro items that come prematched. So they made it across the pond and to a warehouse without any problem/concern. A few days or weeks in your basement will probably be the easiest ride they’ve been on.

[EST rome]

Stay away from talons if you can. I have yet to have an ematch to visco clip not ignite, I cut the ends off any fuse I ematch tho just to ensure fresh powder is at the end of the fuse. Have only done a handful of shows but haven’t had any problems with ematch like I did using talons.

[BMoore]

In terms of safety e-match and initiators are very sensitive. Static electricity, lightning, cell phones and garage door openers can all theoretically detonate them. Friction can also detonate them. In my opinion if the match is shunted it is safe to store. However if you will be moving them around regularly, if they could get knocked over, if you will be transporting them in a vehicle, etc. then you may want to NOT match in advance. Also, do your poking and matching outside just in case. When I’m installing a match I assume the cake could go off. As far as the time commitment, once you get a little practice it’s very easy and goes quickly. I can poke and insert initiators much faster then I can fuse.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

I'm reading a bunch of inconsistencies in your posts. You want better timing, but you're concerned about using initiators. You don't want to do a bunch of wiring/setup on the 4th, but you don't want to poke cakes, use initiators, or store them in your basement.

You can't get there from here! Well, not unless you can afford to hire someone to do your shows for you. Assuming that's not an option... You need to forget about talons and get comfortable using initiators. 70 cakes is nothing to wire. You can do it in a day. If you're concerned about safety, take a match or two and see if you can make it go off! Hit it on the pavement. hold the wires in your hands and rub your feet along the floor to generate some static electricity. Bang one with a hammer. I think you'll quickly find that they're not as susceptible to spontaneous combustion as you may think. If you want to pre-wire boards, look into using slats. I learned just today that you can pre-wire your "series" slats to your cakes and there's no danger of them going off because the slat itself is shunted. So you just take the board to your shoot site, plug in the DB25 cable and start shooting!

Bottom line is, if you insist on using talons and visco you're never going to be able to time your cakes and you're going to be aggravated every year when gobs of your cakes don't fire because the talons are bad.

[Robbro097]

Pre wiring to shunted slats is what i did and it worked awesome really sped that up big time this was a few days b4 my show http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=4273&stc=1

[PyroGyro]

Thanks everyone for the wisdom and advice.

I'm down off the ledge now about poking and ematch and when I do go Efire next year I won't waste my time with Talons. I'll poke an ematch outside the house for extra precautions. I'll make sure everything is shunted. I'm very excited about getting instant fire now.

There was one thing I read above that I didn't quite get. It was about chaining quick fuse from one poked/ematched cake to another cake, and I'm guessing it is to have 2 cakes light together off one ematch? So on the 1st cake you poke it and insert the initiator, but you also insert quick fuse in the same hole as well? What do you do with the other end of the quick fuse that goes to the 2nd cake? Poke the 2nd cake and insert the quick fuse right next to the Visco fuse?

[krayg]

Thanks everyone for the wisdom and advice.

I'm down off the ledge now about poking and ematch and when I do go Efire next year I won't waste my time with Talons. I'll poke an ematch outside the house for extra precautions. I'll make sure everything is shunted. I'm very excited about getting instant fire now.

There was one thing I read above that I didn't quite get. It was about chaining quick fuse from one poked/ematched cake to another cake, and I'm guessing it is to have 2 cakes light together off one ematch? So on the 1st cake you poke it and insert the initiator, but you also insert quick fuse in the same hole as well? What do you do with the other end of the quick fuse that goes to the 2nd cake? Poke the 2nd cake and insert the quick fuse right next to the Visco fuse?

I connected the quick fuse to the visco of the remaining cakes since it was a faster setup. The first cake will be instant and the others will be shortly behind. You could swap out the green visco in the 2nd+ cakes with quick fuse to make it faster as you stated but I didn't feel it was necessary in my case.

[esgrillo]

Thanks everyone for the wisdom and advice.

I'm down off the ledge now about poking and ematch and when I do go Efire next year I won't waste my time with Talons. I'll poke an ematch outside the house for extra precautions. I'll make sure everything is shunted. I'm very excited about getting instant fire now.

There was one thing I read above that I didn't quite get. It was about chaining quick fuse from one poked/ematched cake to another cake, and I'm guessing it is to have 2 cakes light together off one ematch? So on the 1st cake you poke it and insert the initiator, but you also insert quick fuse in the same hole as well? What do you do with the other end of the quick fuse that goes to the 2nd cake? Poke the 2nd cake and insert the quick fuse right next to the Visco fuse?

Take a look at this pic. I have poked the first cake and inserted a match and daisy chain fuse in that first cake (that part is not in the photo). The other cakes I tape together and add fuse leading to the next cake, zip tie to the fuse on that cake and move down the line. In this photo I used both fast and 20sec fuse to time a 10 sec delay before the next cake goes off. I always tape over the fuse with clear packing tape so the risk of cross firing is reduced. You need that especially with the paper fast fuse. It lights very easily.

You can control the overall length of the effect pretty well that way. The most important timing is the initial firing of the first cake which will be exactly what you script since it is ematched. When you are doing this on left and right platforms it looks really clean when both cakes start at the exact same time which will be the case.

4275

[PyroGyro]

Take a look at this pic. I have poked the first cake and inserted a match and daisy chain fuse in that first cake (that part is not in the photo). The other cakes I tape together and add fuse leading to the next cake, zip tie to the fuse on that cake and move down the line. In this photo I used both fast and 20sec fuse to time a 10 sec delay before the next cake goes off. I always tape over the fuse with clear packing tape so the risk of cross firing is reduced. You need that especially with the paper fast fuse. It lights very easily.

You can control the overall length of the effect pretty well that way. The most important timing is the initial firing of the first cake which will be exactly what you script since it is ematched. When you are doing this on left and right platforms it looks really clean when both cakes start at the exact same time which will be the case.

4275

Nice, another new tip for me. I've been using Foil tape to tape everything. I love working with it because it's easy to tear, super sticky, yet not so sticky I can't pull it apart from a fuse, but I think clear packing tape is probably a better option moving forward for a few reasons. 1. You can see the fuse connection underneath the tape so you can tell if you did a good job or not. 2. If something doesn't light, you can easily see where in the chain of fuse it stopped burning. 3. Packing tape is cheaper and stronger for taping cakes together as well. I will switch to clear packing tape. Any recommendation on brand of tape? I ask because some brands of clear packing tape are thin, tear off the roll improperly, and are just hard to work with. 3M usually makes good stuff?

[esgrillo]

Nice, another new tip for me. I've been using Foil tape to tape everything. I love working with it because it's easy to tear, super sticky, yet not so sticky I can't pull it apart from a fuse, but I think clear packing tape is probably a better option moving forward for a few reasons. 1. You can see the fuse connection underneath the tape so you can tell if you did a good job or not. 2. If something doesn't light, you can easily see where in the chain of fuse it stopped burning. 3. Packing tape is cheaper and stronger for taping cakes together as well. I will switch to clear packing tape. Any recommendation on brand of tape? I ask because some brands of clear packing tape are thin, tear off the roll improperly, and are just hard to work with. 3M usually makes good stuff?

I have a warehouse operation and use Uline supplies... it is just there generic brand one I use