Question(s) about poking cakes

[MontanaMike]

This being my first year in the world of poking cakes and using MJG Initiators, I have one big question....

I know you're supposed to work the awl around until you feel the "crunch" of the lift charge. We have a couple of cases of cakes (one NOAB, and one multi-shot) where I've worked that thing as much as possible and it just feels like air inside there. In both cases, I poked just above the existing fuse.

With the NOAB, I stuck a piece of fast-burning fuse in the hole as far as it would go, then will plan to attach the initiator to that fuse rather than stick it in the hole. But I'm not sure what to do about the other cake... should we poke a little higher in hopes of hitting the lift, or will the flame from the match do the job without any extra help?

If anyone's wondering, the NOAB in question is "King of Chrysanthemums" and the other cake is "Jet Propulsion," both from WFBoom.

I will be very glad to get this first "non-Talon" show under our belts so I can quit being so nervous about everything working right!

[displayfireworks1]

Did you watch my videos on this subject?

[MontanaMike]

Yes, and I most recently watched the 'age restricted' one, but it doesn't say what to do if you can't find the crunchy black powder. We'll leave all the existing fuses in place.

[Jay_]

I just use a flashlight to shine down into the hole if I swing and miss with the awl. If you see orange, you need to poke a hole a little further up. if you see black you are good.

Once you do a few, it’s pretty easy.

[joed2323]

Are you sure you are poking directly next to where the fuse goes in at?

Alot of times the fuse is taped upwards maybe a inch then runs through the outer wrapper of the cake. If you are poking alittle too high you are not into the lift charge and will not hear the "crunchies"

Just make sure you are poking next to where the fuse enters into the lift charge.
If you poke to low you will know because you will be trying to poke through the clay plug

With the noabs. That is how I do it. I poke a hole then jam a bunch of cut up quick fuse ends and maybe a long piece or two. I may put too much quick fuse in the hole, but I atleast know when I'm taping up my match that it will ignite with all those quick fuse chunks I jammed into the tube.

You can also try removing the shell by taking the cardboard disk out and poking the actual shell then sliding it back down into the tube and running your wire out the side of the tube. I prefer the fast fuse instead because its easy

[Rick_In_Tampa]

In a perfect world you will feel the crunch every time, but it doesn't work that way all the time.

If you poked the tube where the visco goes in, don't sweat it. You'll be fine. The blast from the shroud will spit out the flame in the tube and it will light. Guaranteed.

[MontanaMike]

Are you sure you are poking directly next to where the fuse goes in at?

Alot of times the fuse is taped upwards maybe a inch then runs through the outer wrapper of the cake.

yep, we did the usual due diligence of doing minor surgery until we reached the first lift tube and poked all of them just above where the fuse goes into the first tube. I was really intimidated to cut into that first cake, but got the knack of it right off. I actually quite enjoyed doing it -- we poked about 100 cakes all together.

Thanks for the tips guys. Have a great 4th! (Or in our case, 5th....the "city" show is on the 4th.)

[Jay_]

soooo....after having poked several hundred, if not over a thousand cakes in the past 5 or 6 years I have one that just has air where the lift should be.

I looked in with a flashlight and I see no lift..maybe some rice paper in there, but there is no crunch to be had. I pulled the internal visco out of the hole and put my igniter in there and yes..no crunch.

This is the last cake in my finale and I have it poked with 9 igniters so I felt inside each tube. No BP seen or felt.

Montana Mike if you are still out there, did your cake that was seemingly without lift charge go up back in 2019?

[Engineer Cat]

soooo....after having poked several hundred, if not over a thousand cakes in the past 5 or 6 years I have one that just has air where the lift should be.

I looked in with a flashlight and I see no lift..maybe some rice paper in there, but there is no crunch to be had. I pulled the internal visco out of the hole and put my igniter in there and yes..no crunch.

This is the last cake in my finale and I have it poked with 9 igniters so I felt inside each tube. No BP seen or felt.

Montana Mike if you are still out there, did your cake that was seemingly without lift charge go up back in 2019?

What cake was it?

I was watching a video earlier where the dude had a 20 shot SO 76pro fan cake. However when you count the tubes there are 25. 5 rows of 5 fan shots. He was poking them to use each one as a slice and when he opened it up the middle row were all empty tubes just used for spacing. Inside you could see the fuse bypassed the middle section on both sides.

Maybe it's a similar situation?

[Berserker23]

If you poke it above the fuse and don’t feel a crush don’t worry you should fine I’ve had a couple like that in the past and they went off.

[Jay_]

What cake was it?

It’s a 3” NOAB, won’t mention name but it’s a top quality product.

I just don’t understand exactly how it works unless the lift charge is bundled up in a rice paper ball below the shell.

Thinking about poking a couple strands of quick fuse through the hole, but I don’t want the quick fuse to end up being my lift charge and the shells igniting and blowing everything that I have in the area (including modules) into oblivion.

[Jay_]

If you poke it above the fuse and don’t feel a crush don’t worry you should fine I’ve had a couple like that in the past and they went off.

Thank you, I hope I have the same luck with this.

[Scotty Rockets]

One time I had a NOAB that was actually missing 2 shells, now that’s a rip off, lol.

[cduesman]

Many of the NOAB 3" shells are ball shells with an attached lift cup. The lift cup can have some black powder strands coming out of it or there are black powder strands sitting in the bottom that will light the lift cup.

If you look at this video, https://youtu.be/BPyvTqP-82g?t=154 you can see the lift cup and the black powder strands. (Not my video, but a picture is helpful.)

If you are very unlucky, you could poke into the void and have the ematch blow up or on the wrong side of a disc and not ignite the shell.

Many people just add some additional quick match fuse or fast fuse into the hole to help guarantee it lights.

I've heard of a few people that completely take the shell out, match into the lift cup and re-assemble, that sounds like a lot of unnecessary work unless you are really trying to nail some exact timings.

I typically just use the existing fuse and put a little piece (~4") of quickmatch on top of the fuse and ematch the quickmatch (or attach an ematch plug to the quickmatch). This way, I don't have to be concerned with how the shell is constructed.

Here's some pics using the quickmatch/port to add over normal visco. I use 2 pieces of masking tape and one larger piece of clear shipping tape.

6335
6336

It's probably faster to poke on the 2" cakes, but I can prep these in advance and just add the ematch at the very end.

Chris

[6afraidof7]

Chris,

Are you just sticking the e-port into the pipe, or onto the BM and then into the pipe? I have seen different ways including a short piece of fast visco into an e-port shoved into the pipe or a spolette kind of connection... Just wondering what works best for you

Thanks

[cduesman]

I make up these little e-ported QM sections in advance. Some QM is easier to do that others. I like the QM with several strands. I'm usually able to get those strands inside the port, with the paper tubing going around the port. (You don't want your igniter touching the black strands, you want a little gap. You also don't want to insert the port into two layers of paper and not be aiming at the black strands.) I then just tape the QM onto the port.

Here's a picture of some of them:

6345

I then take a cake/fountain/tube and expose as much of the fuse as I can until you can see it entering the tube. I typically cut off excess visco leaving an inch or so exposed. I'll put the QM over that fuse and tape it completely covering where it enters the tube. It typically ignites almost instantly.

This method works well. It is slower than just poking. But it can safely be done well in advance. (Safer working/storing items BEFORE they are matched.)

Chris

[6afraidof7]

Thanks Chris,

Those look nice, that's an awesome method! Looks good to me, and will be giving that a try.

[MontanaMike]

Montana Mike if you are still out there, did your cake that was seemingly without lift charge go up back in 2019?

Well I've gotten to where I use a piece of fast fuse whenever we get an "Air cake" or an item that has smaller fuses that are hard to keep in the initiator -- I just slide a piece of fuse alongside the regular fuse as far in as it'll go, then tape the two of them together and put the initiator on the fast fuse. That way if the fast fuse doesn't light it, at least the regular fuse should catch the fire and it would work that way.

We had a couple items not go up this year but we had to scramble to cover everything up for an unscheduled storm so I'm sure a couple things got dislodged.

[Jay_]

So based off of the posts above, I cut some 3"ish strands of quick fuse and clipped the ends at about a 70* angle making them come to a point. They slid right into the igniter and stuck, so I inserted the whole rig into the hole and taped it in. It worked like a charm.

Appreciate the help fellas!

[cduesman]

So based off of the posts above, I cut some 3"ish strands of quick fuse and clipped the ends at about a 70* angle making them come to a point. They slid right into the igniter and stuck, so I inserted the whole rig into the hole and taped it in. It worked like a charm.


ideally, you don't want to jam anything into the shrouded igniter. Visco shouldn't touch the ematch head. The shroud is designed to prevent contact/reduce friction/prevent contamination and bonding of anything to the igniter (which can happen if things get a little wet). By inserting the visco into the shroud such that it's touching the igniter, you are bypassing these safety enhancements.

If you want to insert visco into initiatiors/ematches they do make some that have tubing designed for that purpose. (They tell you to leave small gap.)

Some people are more confortable with various risks than others and make the appropriate decisions. I just think it's important for people to understand the risks so they make an informed decision.

Chris

[Engineer Cat]

ideally, you don't want to jam anything into the shrouded igniter. Visco shouldn't touch the ematch head. The shroud is designed to prevent contact/reduce friction/prevent contamination and bonding of anything to the igniter (which can happen if things get a little wet). By inserting the visco into the shroud such that it's touching the igniter, you are bypassing these safety enhancements.

If you want to insert visco into initiatiors/ematches they do make some that have tubing designed for that purpose. (They tell you to leave small gap.)

Some people are more confortable with various risks than others and make the appropriate decisions. I just think it's important for people to understand the risks so they make an informed decision.

Chris

When I first started with initiators I didn't poke I just taped to visco without a gap and I had some things not fire because of it. Strange that the head touching the visco could cause a misfire but it happens.

All very valid points. I know not many people like the visco to shroud clips but they are designed so that the fuse meets up with the end of the shroud so it's barley sticking inside the shroud. The initiators with the extended shroud designed to connect directly to visco works but white quick / fast fuse is a little to big for it so you have to cut it on an angle like Jay did but it will never reach the head of initiator so it actually works out perfect. I've mentioned this before and don't need to use to it much anymore but a plastic straw cut to one inch or so goes over the shroud very nicely and then you can stick any size consumer visco in it and leave a gap.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdzCtVxCRU8&t=63s