Newbie wants insight on magazine, distance from house and ATF help

[bradman]

I am pretty new here. Would like to get a magazine to hold flash powder. Not much. Need to know the steel gauge requirements, if I use a rubber coating will that be acceptable. If the magazine is in a shed away from my house, how far away does it have to be? The ATF has not been helpful with these questions. They act like they don't know what I'm talking about. Thanks for any help.
:)

[bradman]

I couldn't edit my post. I meant to say that I would like to obtain a manufacturer's license.
Thank you

[displayfireworks1]

Magazine to hold flash powder. That's a good one. When you called the ATF and told them that. Did they at least get your name and address. If they did not I would be disappointed in them.

[Bung]

I would imagine the answer is somewhere amongst this lot:

https://www.atf.gov/questions-and-answers/explosives-qas

Good luck :confused:

https://www.atf.gov/explosives/docs/guide/publication-explosives-magazine-construction-requirements-atf-p-540017/download

I am not 100% sure, but I think rubber generates static, like rubbing a rubber balloon on ones head would generate static, so what is the risk of a spark?

[displayfireworks1]

Bung its a U.S.A thing. The ATF does not approve of this activity. They would rather you get licensed and purchase commercially made salutes.

[bradman]

I was trying to find out a way to legally make salutes. Not my intent to break the law. Maybe I will try asking your way.. @displayfireworks1

There are many people in the USA making salutes under this license for personal use.

[displayfireworks1]

You do not need a licence to make fireworks for your own use. The question is. Is stored flash power a fireworks product?

[bradman]

I guess that's what what I'm asking, or if the components, more importantly would have to be stored in a magazine
Just asking so I don't get in trouble.
My intention is to get a manufacturer's license so that I don't get in trouble. ATF has said that what I am going to do is fiine. Not sure about the magazine and how far it has to be from my house if it is in an enclosed structure.

[Bung]

Bung its a U.S.A thing. The ATF does not approve of this activity. They would rather you get licensed and purchase commercially made salutes.

I would agree with that. Joe Bloggs should not be carrying out stuff like this. The buying of explosive powders should only be possible if you can prove you have the correct documentation and qualifications. Having been browsing through some rules and laws, and boy are they bizarre in cases, I think a common sense approach ought to be brought to the fore and get some of them changed. Still, as you rightly say, it is US thing. The same can be said about ours too as some of our own rules - thanks to those nutters in the EU, are bizarre aswell.

[bradman]

Sorry guys. I apologize if I shouldn't have asked about this on here. I am in the thinking stage and was just looking for some insight. No harm meant.

[Bung]

Sorry guys. I apologize if I shouldn't have asked about this on here. I am in the thinking stage and was just looking for some insight. No harm meant.

No harm in asking, but enough titanium flash powder articles would be a mass explosive hazard. Take a 3 inch Titanium shell (1.1G) - Equivalent to a military grenade. Enough of them going off by accident could surely land you in serious trouble. If, US law regarding what you are thinking of doing, means you don't need a licence or whatever document they say must be, because it is only for a non fireworks use or to make fireworks which only you will be using, then the person or persons who drew up this law is total retardation at its finest and should be sacked/sued for gross incompetence if someone is injured or killed.
Please don't take this as a gripe with you Bradman, you have done nothing wrong. Its just that it leaves me utterly gobsmacked that the ATF more or less say it is ok. (shakes head in utter disbelief at such incompetence).
All in all, it would be far better and safer to let someone else who has all the documentation make the Salutes and you simply buy what you need, but there is still the issue of storing 1.1G pyro.
Dave - If I have the wrong of the stick, I do apologise.

[bradman]

I think I'll just leave the idea alone. Sounds like that's my best course of action. Thank you all for the input.

[Mattp]

Take a 3 inch Titanium shell (1.1G) If, US law regarding what you are thinking of doing, means you don't need a licence or whatever document they say must be, because it is only for a non fireworks use or to make fireworks which only you will be using, then the person or persons who drew up this law is total retardation at its finest and should be sacked/sued for gross incompetence if someone is injured or killed. Its just that it leaves me utterly gobsmacked that the ATF more or less say it is ok. (shakes head in utter disbelief at such incompetence).
All in all, it would be far better and safer to let someone else who has all the documentation make the Salutes and you simply buy what you need, but there is still the issue of storing 1.1G pyro.

i could be wrong.. but ill take a stab at it.. i do not believe a few 3" salute shells is considered 1.1g... until it is a bulk amount (full case or more, with no color shells mixed in).. now for the other part.. to make fireworks for your own personal use, you do not need a license,, but you do need a license or permit to buy the materials and to store the materials along with a properly approved storage magazine.. which in alot of parts of the country because of space limitations, are not so easy to get.. i do agree.. it is much easier to just purchase what you want to get,, but if someone wants to make it a hobby then ok, i get it... in that case bradman.. all of your storage questions are answered in the ATF orange book... i suggest reading it fully more than once!!

[Bung]

i could be wrong.. but ill take a stab at it.. i do not believe a few 3" salute shells is considered 1.1g... until it is a bulk amount (full case or more, with no color shells mixed in).. now for the other part.. to make fireworks for your own personal use, you do not need a license,, but you do need a license or permit to buy the materials and to store the materials along with a properly approved storage magazine.. which in alot of parts of the country because of space limitations, are not so easy to get.. i do agree.. it is much easier to just purchase what you want to get,, but if someone wants to make it a hobby then ok, i get it... in that case bradman.. all of your storage questions are answered in the ATF orange book... i suggest reading it fully more than once!!

Salute/maroon shells are classified, under UN-SCETDG, as 1.1G. Titanium flash powder mines also come under the same classification. Copy and paste job from the UN-SCETDG report.
Classifications seem to be varied between countries sometimes, so the US may view things differently?
Report shells3. Four different report shells were included in 6(a) and 6(b) tests, three of which produced mass explosion results. The results are summarised below:50mm Sunny Titanium salute shells - no mass explosion in 6(b)50mm flashing salute shells with mortar tube - mass explosion from 6(a) and 6(b)65mm flashing salute shells - mass explosion from 6(a) and 6(b) (see photo 1 of the 6(b) test)75mm Igual report shell - mass explosion from 6(a) and 6(b)75mm Standard Fireworks report shell - mass explosion from 6(a)
A test of 65mm flashing salute shells4.These results were provided at the working group meeting in The Hague and were used to assign all report shells to division 1.1.

[Mattp]

yes i definitely could be wrong.. but i do believe here in the us.. what i previously said is correct..bulk salutes and color shells over 10" are 1.1g. which is why most companies offer cases mixed with salutes and color shells to keep a 1.3 classification.... i get that it varies country by country.. and for us those are regulated by the dept of transportation... but i would think the UN numbers would be pretty standard worldwide... but im no expert. and dont deal with any of this myself... thats just how i've come to interpret what ive read!!!

[Bung]

Here is a hefty 6 inch salute at 1.1G. Jeez! is that loud! :D
Over here, all salute shells are 1.1G.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXeHxHLxzgI

[Bung]

That would make it 1.1G still. If that is actually what is going on over there, there are laws being broken left, right and centre. :eek:

[RalphieJ]

Is F & F still in business?

[Bung]

Is F & F still in business?

Lynch imports are selling them, so either they must be or F&F were taken over by another company and their products are labled F&F. I do not know tbh, as US Pyro companies are not my Forte.

[Mattp]

If that is actually what is going on over there, there are laws being broken left, right and centre. :eek:

sounds about right!!!! HAHAHA... i though it goes by weight.. that video definitely does not do it justice.. that thing must've been so loud in person... AWESOME!!

[Bung]

sounds about right!!!! HAHAHA... i though it goes by weight.. that video definitely does not do it justice.. that thing must've been so loud in person... AWESOME!!


Aye. Bad enough being under a 3 inch salute, such is the blast energy being thrown out. I'd want to be at least a mile away when one of those 6 inch bombs go off! :D

[chris v]

I'm sorry but don't you think it would be better to educate and enlighten people with knowledge not to discourage people from what they enjoy.thats what I thought this site was about.
First any size salute is considered 1.1 high explosive
Shells 8" or bigger are in the same category
Distributors mix salutes and colors for shipping reasons and importation to answer birdmans question when it comes to manufacturing you need a large amount of property for the different buildings needed.
You dont need any licenses to manufacture if you are using them there you cannot transport only thing I would recommend is a jobox converted to a mag. Basically wood lined for none sparking.
As a person that manufactures as a hobby I wouldn't recommend storing salutes if anyone has any questions feel free to ask

[Mattp]

Im not trying to debate that.. i really would like to know for my own knowledge.. and i cannot find the answer in any of the books... they way i interpret the rules.. is that the 1.1g designation is for “bulk salutes”. (Among other items too.. but i want to know specifically about the salutes)... thats what it says on all of the papers i have read.. but what/when are they considered bulk(how many).. i thought it was one case.. but on memorial day i got a case of 3” salutes and it said 1.3g on it.. and then i realized that i have purchased quite a few cases of salutes over the years.. and have never seen a box with a 1.1g on it... where is this information that says 1 salute is 1.1 ??? I cannot find it..

[chris v]

All of that is probably word play like silver flower shells or they add 1 or 2 color shells to the salutes in order for shipping the labeling of 1.1 is for item classified as high explosive which shells 8" and up are considered there are few ports in the US that allow H.E to be transported through them so in order for the salutes to be passed through the port they change the name or mix boxes to avoid "bulk salutes"

[Mattp]

Yes exactly,, and that makes alot of sense.. In the past i have gotten salute cases with literally one color shell mixed in.. lol for that purpose im sure.. but this last one was a full case of salute.. but the cardboard box itself did not say salute.. it was on a label sticker added to the box.. so you may be right there.. even forgetting that though. .. i have heard a few times now that 1 salute shell is considered 1.1.. but everywhere i read rules and regulations its for “bulk” salute.. none of this really matters to me.. but i like beimg as knowledgeable as i can..

[Mattp]

Ok.. now i get it.!!!. i just looked in the orange book definitions of bulk salute.. :::

Bulk salutes. Salute components prior to final assembly into aerial shells, and finished salute shells held separately prior to being packed with other types of display fireworks.

Pretty much answers that.. lol.. ive readthis orange boom backward and fowards a few times too.. guess i need to brush up ont it

[chris v]

Yea that book is very confusing at times lol

[Arclight]

Keep in mind that your magazine doesn't have to be located at your residence or shop. If there is desert, farmland or other privately-owned acreage within an hour or two of you, there is probably a rancher or someone who will lease you a 50x50' area for a reasonable price. You can draw it up as something like "$500/year or equivalent services" if they like fireworks shows.

The table-of-distances for low-explosives is pretty easy to meet, especially if you can get some tractor work done. Barricading your magazine reduced the ToD requirement by 1/2.

Just make sure that you or someone else can do a walk or drive-by every 7 days to check on them. Cell-connected alarms and game cams are also becoming pretty affordable, and most can run on solar.

[mike70]

If you wanna make some firecrackers to go out and shoot your better off to just make the amount of flash you need. Put your crackers together and go shoot em . It's a fast easy process and you really shouldn't be storing mixed flash powder anyway.