Private Contingency Storage

[BMoore]

I often see posts from folks looking for contingency storage and it's apparent that if you aren't fortunate enough to live close a distributor then storage becomes a very real issue and may even be a show stopper. I'm curious why more magazine owners don't publicly (via this forum) offer space in their magazines for storage for a fee? You could limit it to a certain number of transactions per year, a certain quantity of product, etc. The only downside I see is recordkeeping, but if you limit it to just a couple individuals I would think the revenue would be worth it. Even if a person has contingency with their distributor it's often a substantial drive (longer than you'd want to make in the middle of the night after a shoot) and most distributors don't really offer storage per say. For example I can't buy a case of shells, use half and leave the rest in storage until my next show. I would think the fees that someone would be willing to pay for local storage of just a few cases might be pretty high.

[rreffner]

I often see posts from folks looking for contingency storage and it's apparent that if you aren't fortunate enough to live close a distributor then storage becomes a very real issue and may even be a show stopper. I'm curious why more magazine owners don't publicly (via this forum) offer space in their magazines for storage for a fee? You could limit it to a certain number of transactions per year, a certain quantity of product, etc. The only downside I see is recordkeeping, but if you limit it to just a couple individuals I would think the revenue would be worth it. Even if a person has contingency with their distributor it's often a substantial drive (longer than you'd want to make in the middle of the night after a shoot) and most distributors don't really offer storage per say. For example I can't buy a case of shells, use half and leave the rest in storage until my next show. I would think the fees that someone would be willing to pay for local storage of just a few cases might be pretty high.

We all know that having your own magazine is a huge responsibility, and I can imagine being responsible for someone else's product would make it 10x more so. No reasonable amount of money would make me want to hold someones product for them in a magazine I own. For a close friend, for short term storage as a favor with no money involved, and as a one time thing, maybe. But as a 'business' to make money, no way. My reasons I guess are this:
1) Not sure how the ATF would view this, but I bet you would be on their radar pretty intensely. That would be a PIA.
2) The amount of money it would take to make the hassle worth it, I don't think anyone would be willing to pay. 20 dollars a month wouldn't cut it for me, having to do weekly logs of their product, verify it is what they say it is, let them in to get product, check it out, check unused stuff back in...verify it again..... 100 dollars a month wouldn't be enough either. And I don't think many would be willing to pay a hundred bucks a month for 1.3 storage. Maybe I'm wrong.
3) What if they stop paying for whatever reason? Do you get to keep the product? What if you refuse to let them in because they haven't been paying, and they report things as stolen? Now you have a mess on your hands. I would like to think this would never happen, but I always think of worst case scenarios before I start something.
4) I would be curious to know how that works....If you have your type 54 as a user of explosives, and your own magazine, and suddenly someone applies with you as their contingency storage, wouldn't that appear that you aren't a hobbyist anymore, from the ATF perspective? Would just start a tangled web of questions and things that I try to avoid.

Not saying any of this would actually happen, but it is things to consider and for me, its a situation I would not want to put myself in, especially to just make a few extra bucks. now you start throwing stupid money at me, say a grand a month or something, that changes things. But 'beer money' wouldn't be enough for me to take on the headache. My personal opinion on why this isn't common, or maybe even existent at all.

[Crush630]

We all know that having your own magazine is a huge responsibility, and I can imagine being responsible for someone else's product would make it 10x more so. No reasonable amount of money would make me want to hold someones product for them in a magazine I own. For a close friend, for short term storage as a favor with no money involved, and as a one time thing, maybe. But as a 'business' to make money, no way. My reasons I guess are this:
1) Not sure how the ATF would view this, but I bet you would be on their radar pretty intensely. That would be a PIA.
2) The amount of money it would take to make the hassle worth it, I don't think anyone would be willing to pay. 20 dollars a month wouldn't cut it for me, having to do weekly logs of their product, verify it is what they say it is, let them in to get product, check it out, check unused stuff back in...verify it again..... 100 dollars a month wouldn't be enough either. And I don't think many would be willing to pay a hundred bucks a month for 1.3 storage. Maybe I'm wrong.
3) What if they stop paying for whatever reason? Do you get to keep the product? What if you refuse to let them in because they haven't been paying, and they report things as stolen? Now you have a mess on your hands. I would like to think this would never happen, but I always think of worst case scenarios before I start something.
4) I would be curious to know how that works....If you have your type 54 as a user of explosives, and your own magazine, and suddenly someone applies with you as their contingency storage, wouldn't that appear that you aren't a hobbyist anymore, from the ATF perspective? Would just start a tangled web of questions and things that I try to avoid.

Not saying any of this would actually happen, but it is things to consider and for me, its a situation I would not want to put myself in, especially to just make a few extra bucks. now you start throwing stupid money at me, say a grand a month or something, that changes things. But 'beer money' wouldn't be enough for me to take on the headache. My personal opinion on why this isn't common, or maybe even existent at all.

I don't own or pay for contingency (I must be lucky) My distributor provide me the contingency letter, no charge only a promise to buy stuff from them the year I got my 54. The ATFE only mentioned during my interview I must be within one hour driving distance to the contingency if product is not used on the date of the shoot.

[jknepp1954]

Sometimes if you belong to a regional pyro club...they have a mag and let you use it. Just a thought.

[BMoore]

All good points. What prompted my question is that it seems like there are many posts on this forum by folks who are seemingly precluded from pursing their type 54 due to the non-availability of storage. Those of us lucky enough to be within an hour of a distributor or club storage are probably in the minority. I'm sure these individuals would bend over backwards to meet any and all stipulations and pay a handsome fee to get contingency from a nearby private magazine owner. There just seems to be a market that no one is filling.

[rreffner]

I don't own or pay for contingency (I must be lucky) My distributor provide me the contingency letter, no charge only a promise to buy stuff from them the year I got my 54. The ATFE only mentioned during my interview I must be within one hour driving distance to the contingency if product is not used on the date of the shoot.

This is my situation as well. Most use this method I believe, some do have their own magazine. I could have my own but choose not to, just not worth the headache and liability, IMHO. Throw a few more people in the mix with owning your own magazine and renting it out and I think it would just be too cumbersome. The more I think of it, I think it might not even be allowed as I run through scenarios in my head. I'm newer to the scene so I am not experienced enough to say for sure.
I agree there may be a market for it with people willing to pay, but I don't think the other side of the market exists (those with the storage to 'rent). Just too much liability, risk, and paperwork. I haven't heard of it happening. I have heard of people using other's storage occasionally, but never heard of someone else's magazine (that isnt a distributor) being used as contingency approval on a type 54 app. I would think the ATF would frown on that, as would their local fire marshall, etc. Not a question I would personally ask the ATF, my bet is it would raise some red flags and suspicions. Would almost need to be tried by a new applicant to get a real answer.

[Mattp]

i dont think the atf cares who a letter of contingency comes from .. and i dont think there is any regulation against storing other peoples products in your magazine..as long as all your paperwork is in order.. but start charging to do so and that may change things a bit... but i completely agree with reffner...if i had my own magazine (which i dont)..it would be such a PIA and not worth my time/risk to do so..in theory is a good idea.. but once you start thinking of all the scenarios... unless you were to go full in and make it an explosive storage business... and put magazines all over the country.. then it may be worth it...but i doubt it..lol

[greenadptt]

I am having the same trouble. I am going for the contingency storage. I live on the TN/VA border (Bristol VA) and cannot find anyone closer than Pyroshows (KY border) that has a magazine. It is 160 miles away from my home. I contacted the local road construction crew along with a coal mine that both have magazines, both answered "NO" to temp storage. I am at the point that I cannot complete my ATF54 due to the lack of a magazine. I have googled and called every fireworks shop that sells consumer fireworks within 100 miles and none of them have the ability to sell 1.3 fireworks. Is there anyone on here from Northeast TN that i can talk to or anyone that can help?

[rreffner]

I am having the same trouble. I am going for the contingency storage. I live on the TN/VA border (Bristol VA) and cannot find anyone closer than Pyroshows (KY border) that has a magazine. It is 160 miles away from my home. I contacted the local road construction crew along with a coal mine that both have magazines, both answered "NO" to temp storage. I am at the point that I cannot complete my ATF54 due to the lack of a magazine. I have googled and called every fireworks shop that sells consumer fireworks within 100 miles and none of them have the ability to sell 1.3 fireworks. Is there anyone on here from Northeast TN that i can talk to or anyone that can help?

Check with the ATF. They may be willing to let you use that as contingency. The distance is a number that is not set in stone. Some tell licensees they must be within an hour, some just want it to be a reasonable drive to be able to use them same day/return if they cant shoot. Some want it to be 100 miles, some say 150 miles, it just depends. 160 miles is not absurd, so your ATF inspector or agent may allow that distance for contingency. That could be a 2 hour drive or a 5 hour drive. Doesn't hurt to try. You aren't going to get someone to let you use their magazine unless you are close with them. Maybe join crackerjacks fireworks club, maybe they have some info you could use.

[displayfireworks1]

Where do plan to purchase 1.3 products if you are licensed?

[greenadptt]

Where do plan to purchase 1.3 products if you are licensed?

Thats a good question. That is my next step. Any suggestions?

[greenadptt]

I have no plan, I have just started this venture so I will take all the info and advice i can.

[Bazerk]

Storage will be the stickler for most anyone. However, if you have the space, you can make your own magazine.....I did and it worked out beautifully.

[shake the cove]

All good points. What prompted my question is that it seems like there are many posts on this forum by folks who are seemingly precluded from pursing their type 54 due to the non-availability of storage. Those of us lucky enough to be within an hour of a distributor or club storage are probably in the minority. I'm sure these individuals would bend over backwards to meet any and all stipulations and pay a handsome fee to get contingency from a nearby private magazine owner. There just seems to be a market that no one is filling.

I always wonder when someones posts about obtaining the type 54 explosive license. They usually have very few posts, don't say if they have joined a club, haven't gotten a state pyrotechnicians /shooters license or even taken the PGI or APA exams.plenty of companies run intro shooters course each year which would be a good place to start as most know. With no idea of their background I would be hesitant also to give any contingency storage.

[Arclight]

As a magazine owner, I would also not want to deal with this due to record keeping, co-mingled products, unknowns about what they are keeping, etc. What might work is to find a mining company or other company that has a magazine and offer to lease a SPOT to keep your own, individually-owned magazine. This way, they are out of the loop in terms of what's inside the "big white box."

This could also be done at almost any rural property, such as a farm or ranch.

[yamiacaveman]

Just curious where the time and distance thing comes in for contingency storage.

Luckily I have a place where I can buy 1.3g, they have contingency storage, and it's only 45 minutes away.

In my interview, of course the contingency storage came up, the inspector never brought up time or distance to my supplier. I did ask if he knew any other places that I could go to in my area that I could buy 1.3g. His response was that he coud not recomend places to buy 1.3g. So I rephrased the question and asked if he new of any other places that offered contingency storeage. His there was a place close by, but they just went out of business last year, and the next closest place would probably be Fire Art. Not knowing a thing about Fire Art, I said OK great I'll look them up. So, I looked them up, really like what they have and plan on ordering stuff from them (if it all works out).
So for me, they are 2.5 hours away and I don't mind the drive and I was not told that I couldn't go there. Will I get into trouble???? I don't even like to ask this but what 1.3g supplier is going to be open at 11pm for you to return your stuff if you couldn't shoot it off?

It would be nice BMoore to have a self storage place near by, I would be thrilled just to have a place like in the center of our state, although Fire Art is close, most is skewed towards Pittsburg or Allentown.

[Arclight]

I thought about it some more, and I think another reason a mining company wouldn't want any of your stuff in their locker is because they can get spot-checked by MSHA, the mine safety and health administration. Their explosives are supposed to be 1. Within their expiration date and 2. Permissible. I suspect they would worry about getting fined if they had any sparking or "non permissible" articles in their stores.

That being said, I still think you've got a good chance of finding someone with a rural property just outside your town that would let you put up a type 4 magazine. If you find a place with cell service, you can keep an eye on it with a Spypoint or similar game camera for about $150. Bonus if it has a caretaker.

I agreed to pay about $500/year or "equivalent services" to rent my site. For you, that could be putting on a show there or helping with some farm chores, mowing, etc. once in a while.

[YorkPyro]

Lots of great information in this post, as I believe I run into this situation living in south central PA. I know there are places north of me and west of me but near me not so much. I do how ever plan to purchase a Job box from Lowes and convert it into a Type 4 magazine which I have seen a few people do. Just for a small amount of storage. Although I have good friend that owns 49 acres that I plan to talk to him about putting a shipping container on the property for me to use.

[FireInTheSky]

I thought about it some more, and I think another reason a mining company wouldn't want any of your stuff in their locker is because they can get spot-checked by MSHA, the mine safety and health administration. Their explosives are supposed to be 1. Within their expiration date and 2. Permissible. I suspect they would worry about getting fined if they had any sparking or "non permissible" articles in their stores.

That being said, I still think you've got a good chance of finding someone with a rural property just outside your town that would let you put up a type 4 magazine. If you find a place with cell service, you can keep an eye on it with a Spypoint or similar game camera for about $150. Bonus if it has a caretaker.

I agreed to pay about $500/year or "equivalent services" to rent my site. For you, that could be putting on a show there or helping with some farm chores, mowing, etc. once in a while.


I agree with the rural property idea. I know a few different people with land that Ill be asking if i can stick a magazine in the back corner of there property. Mostly farm land. But first i have to obtain my type 54

[Salutecake]

Some second thoughts on Storage. I saw a post on here recently, that a place in Florida was renting mag space, something like 300 bucks but for how long and how much i don't know. It's a business renting magazine space. It would be nice to see how that turns out and maybe with hope, open things up and spread. Clubs are probably a good idea. Another is having it delivered the day of the shoot, but at what price and what happens if it doesn't go off? Renting a plot of land and building your magazine sounds good, but you still need to be close to it. I have a Quarry near by me and I did talk with them, it turns out that they use to do their own blasting but found it cheaper and easier to higher a company to come in and do it when they need it done. Mining places, years ago I was at a start up mine, in Central PA, 2 brothers bought an old mine and mined on their own, just the two of them. At the time, 15 or so years ago I was there to install a communication circuit and I asked the guy about a concrete building with a tall fence and barbed wire around it. He said that was his explosive mag. and he said they have been here twice so far. He said it's like movie when they come, a big black SUV pulls up 4 or 5 guys dressed up in all the garb and carrying AR's pop out, one guy goes in the rest stand guard they do the inventory and then leave. But that was a check on a High explosives mag and shortly after 911, so maybe over done at the time and more practical now but I don't know. I thought about a job box, but for me, what I buy for a shoot would probably not fit, maybe good for left over's or ematch? Just some thoughts, no solutions, but agood topic for discussions.

[Arclight]

Some second thoughts on Storage. I saw a post on here recently, that a place in Florida was renting mag space, something like 300 bucks but for how long and how much i don't know. It's a business renting magazine space. It would be nice to see how that turns out and maybe with hope, open things up and spread. Clubs are probably a good idea. Another is having it delivered the day of the shoot, but at what price and what happens if it doesn't go off? Renting a plot of land and building your magazine sounds good, but you still need to be close to it. I have a Quarry near by me and I did talk with them, it turns out that they use to do their own blasting but found it cheaper and easier to higher a company to come in and do it when they need it done. Mining places, years ago I was at a start up mine, in Central PA, 2 brothers bought an old mine and mined on their own, just the two of them. At the time, 15 or so years ago I was there to install a communication circuit and I asked the guy about a concrete building with a tall fence and barbed wire around it. He said that was his explosive mag. and he said they have been here twice so far. He said it's like movie when they come, a big black SUV pulls up 4 or 5 guys dressed up in all the garb and carrying AR's pop out, one guy goes in the rest stand guard they do the inventory and then leave. But that was a check on a High explosives mag and shortly after 911, so maybe over done at the time and more practical now but I don't know. I thought about a job box, but for me, what I buy for a shoot would probably not fit, maybe good for left over's or ematch? Just some thoughts, no solutions, but agood topic for discussions.

What you're describing might have been part of the regulatory crackdown on small Anthracite miners a few years back. The UMWU and others put pressure on MSHA, ATF, etc. to tighten up their scrutiny of small miners. There is a great documentary called "Hard Coal" that really goes over their battle to stay mining:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOzmd5aZIzQ

[215less]

What you're describing might have been part of the regulatory crackdown on small Anthracite miners a few years back. The UMWU and others put pressure on MSHA, ATF, etc. to tighten up their scrutiny of small miners. There is a great documentary called "Hard Coal" that really goes over their battle to stay mining:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOzmd5aZIzQ

I have heard about this. Thanks Arclight for the link.

[Salutecake]

Yep thanks Arclight. Part two of that story, is that I could not believe I watched the one brother hop on the cart belly down and use is hands to push himself along the track for a few yards then almost squeeze through an opening in the ground and disappear. I was brought up in the coal regions of PA and saw a lot of mines, but that one scared me, but to each their own.