ATF License Feedback & Indiana Question

[displayfireworks1]

On this post I will copy and paste a recent redacted ATF license email I received. This comes from the state of Indiana. If there is a pyrotalk forums member from Indiana please feel free to comment on this. I have heard of similar verbal direction from ATF Inspectors on this sort of thing in other states. It usually comes with something along the lines of. "We are granting the license . however when we come back in three years do this". Now "this" can be , get a state certification or make the hood on the magazines a little thicker etc. I have an opinion on this , I would first like to hear comments from others if they would like to post it would be great.
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Hi Dave:


Thank you for your help with obtaining a type 54 license. I was also able to have a type 4 outdoor magazine approved on my property as well. Your videos were a huge help - Thank You!

The ATF informed me I would need to show a permit for a "Supervised Display of Public Fireworks" during the time of renewal in 3 years (Attached) for every shoot I have. I am wondering if you have heard of anyone in Indiana actually doing this if the show is private which my display will be? I will not be charging admission or anything like that.

My concern is that while my shoot site is roughly 18acres it is located in the municipality of XXXXXXXX (XXXXXXXX Indiana) and this is one of the few large properties still around in the area (XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX Farm on a lake). I want to follow the rules however I also do not want to draw more attention than needed.

Does the ATF truly require one of these approved permits during renewal or was the agent potentially trying to "Over-Sell" what was needed during a renewal? Any advice or experiences you have heard would be appreciated.

I will be at Cobra-Con in April and really hope to meet you. Thank you again!


Sincerely,
XXXXX XXXXXX
Phone number redacted
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Form the Indiana ATF Inspector gave him and he included in his email to me.
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http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=3712&stc=1
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http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=3713&stc=1

[joewad]

My renewal is coming up early this coming year. First I've heard of it but I live quite "remotely" in the country so It might be possible. During my initial interview my ATF agent mentioned that I should contact/file with the Indiana homeland security about shooting of public displays but I respectfully corrected him by stating I shoot for private enjoyment and not public and he let it be. If I lived within city limits, municipalities, etc., and had to wade through all the paperwork approval to shoot I probably wouldn't have an FEL. They may correct me during my renewal but I feel correct in my interpretation.

[displayfireworks1]

This sort of thing makes the Inspector feel good or feel he covered himself. So you or anyone can not use the lame excuse of "No one Told me" . Because I am sure there are people that try to blame the ATF for something state related if it should occur. The ATF issues the license and in 3 years show me this. Chances are in 3 years you will receive an entirely different Inspector.
I have no record of an ATF license denial based on a state related issue like this. I have record of them bluffing the applicant into withdrawing the application.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Well, from a purely logical perspective, the inspectors add-on requirement makes no sense.

1. The ATF is a federal agency, not a state agency. As such, their requirements to issue a 54 ANYWHERE in the USA should be exactly the same. After all, the 54 is a license to BUY class B fireworks, NOT a license to use them!

2. If this "Supervised Display of Public Fireworks" permit is a requirement for a renewal, why wouldn't it be a requirement for your initial permit?? Is the inspector really saying you can go 3 years without showing you're in compliance with federal law while buying and using class B fireworks?? That makes 0 sense to me.

Sounds to me like the inspector is trying to turn this "Supervised Display of Public Fireworks" permit thing into a requirement where they have no authority to do so. I get that's probably something they would like to see, but if Mama ATF didn't identify it as a requirement for everyone, it's not a requirement.

Just my $0.02.

[shake the cove]

This sort of thing makes the Inspector feel good or feel he covered himself. So you or anyone can not use the lame excuse of "No one Told me" . Because I am sure there are people that try to blame the ATF for something state related if it should occur. The ATF issues the license and in 3 years show me this. Chances are in 3 years you will receive an entirely different Inspector.
I have no record of an ATF license denial based on a state related issue like this. I have record of them bluffing the applicant into withdrawing the application.

My inspector did not even ask where or how I had shot my product. She did say it will be a different inspector each time, they are not allowed to revisit and least in my state of Tennessee. She did take a copy of my State shooters license and yearly training seminars I went to to keep my state license.

[joewad]

Just completed my renewal interview with ATF agent visit and YES, according to agent, the state of Indiana does want you to submit form, date of shoot or range and a few dollars. I told her I had not filled one out yet during my first 3 years of having a Federal Explosives License (FEL) Type 54. Even my initial interview 3 years ago it was mentioned and my contention then was I am not shooting public but for private enjoyment. The agent did not mention it again. The renewal interview the agent took the stance that once you shoot it in the sky it becomes public but I still respectfuly disagreed. SHe asked where I shoot, she reviewed and copied some of my acquisition records and we discussed my use of contingency storage. Her main review point upon acquistion records since I only have contingency storage letters was that the purchases I had made were either Friday or Saturday. All were on Friday or Saturday with that exception of one and I pointed out it was a purchase for New Years. Interview occurred end of February while my FEL does not expire until May. Another point she made sure I understood was that I am not buying product then shooting it the following day. I feel confident renewal will granted, she left on a positive note.

[displayfireworks1]

At joewad , did you ask that Inspector those questions about what the state does or does not want or did the Inspector randomly bring all of that up?

[joewad]

The inspector brought the state questions up on her own. I did not initiate that topic of conversation.

[Kenny East]

Hopefully it all works out, Michigan has a similar form... To be used as a template for local jurisdictions to base their own permit issuance off of. At my recent inspection, my inspector checked that I had my purchase records... But didn't look at them individually or check to make sure they were properly filled out.

Should be stated, I didn't buy any 1.3 last year... My inspector said they only review the prior 12 months purchase records... And that was why he didn't look at them. My local officials are fine as long as they have a heads up and I don't do a truckload of salutes.

[Crush630]

hmm I was told by local PD and FD that they do not have or require any permits for a non-public display of fireworks. This is for North Judson IN.

[displayfireworks1]

My ATF license rant (today). LOL
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWnTb5svFpU
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http://www.dekkofoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/rant.jpg

[Keep Fireworks Great]

Completely Agree. Sometimes when we ask too many questions we get the wrong answers.

[displayfireworks1]

I found this comment on my YouTube channel. While he does not mention a magazine or not. I suspect he was just applying for a contingency user Type 54. It covers some of what I mentioned. Note the "withdraw my application"
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Dave just an FYI for those who live in NJ and want their Type 54. The agent will call you to make an appointment for your interview. Upon confirming all your info over the phone he/she will ask if you have a letter from your local zoning board acknowledging that either they don?t care that you posses a permit or that you might have to get the OK from the board. This is what happened to me, so I had to withdraw my application.
Name Withheld

[Kenny East]

I didn't use my permit on the last year, lol I will get the full use of the next one... Just had to take a fishing trip during the fourth this past year. Even if I didn't buy, I would still keep my permit for transporting my built fireworks as well as maintaining a magazine.

[chriskrc]

Dave you talk a lot about this sort of thing on these forums plus in you tube videos. I don't know why they withdrew their application, its a federal license not a state one.

[BMoore]

Remember, people tend to only openly complain when they have problems. We don't typically hear feedback from the hundreds of other license holders who have no issues. That fact may skew the perceptions of new people reading the forums. Also, a theory of mine is that a lot of problems are self-fulfilling. Let's face it, we are going to the ATF and asking them to let us buy explosives. That is intimidating. It's like when a police officer approaches you and even though you've done nothing wrong you get that knot in your stomach and you feel like you are guilty of something and start acting like you are guilty of something. If the ATF officer feels like you are sweating bullets they are likely to dig deeper into your intentions. From there the situation snowballs until the fight or flight response kicks in and the applicant withdraws. I think educating yourself fully, understand the laws, read the orange book, read NFPA 1123, attend a shooter school, etc. before applying goes a long way. Doing so will calm nerves, allow you to speak intelligently and help reassure the officer. My ATF interview was nothing but positive but I think understanding the law, asking intelligent questions and demonstrating my knowledge played a role in that. I'm sure the meetings with people who are incredibly nervous, know very little and come off as just wanting to "blow things up" are going to go a little differently.

[joewad]

A couple things: I did not withdraw my application I stood my ground in a respectful manner. A basic understanding of the Orange Book along with some basic common sense goes a long way. My post was not intended to be perceived as a complaint but rather informative to those that are about to go through the new or review process. I am confident my I will receive my renewal in the mail and I will let you know when I do. At no time was I sweating bullets, it was a very respectful one on one discussion of the do's and don'ts. At the end of interview I had to sign and date a Permittee Statement Of Required Storage (no form number and undated) and a Acknowledgement Of Federal Explosives Regulations checklist (no form number but revised 9/21/216). The checklist acknowledges those topics discussed during interview. I told agen I didnt need either a hard copy or electronic copy of Orange Book. She proceeded to give me a highlighted copy of the definition section of Orange Book as a template for discussions.

[BMoore]

Joewad,

My comments and I believe most of the other comments were related to Dave's video rather than your situation. I think this thread was sort of hijacked as they say. It sounds to me like you handled your interview well.




A couple things: I did not withdraw my application I stood my ground in a respectful manner. A basic understanding of the Orange Book along with some basic common sense goes a long way. My post was not intended to be perceived as a complaint but rather informative to those that are about to go through the new or review process. I am confident my I will receive my renewal in the mail and I will let you know when I do. At no time was I sweating bullets, it was a very respectful one on one discussion of the do's and don'ts. At the end of interview I had to sign and date a Permittee Statement Of Required Storage (no form number and undated) and a Acknowledgement Of Federal Explosives Regulations checklist (no form number but revised 9/21/216). The checklist acknowledges those topics discussed during interview. I told agen I didnt need either a hard copy or electronic copy of Orange Book. She proceeded to give me a highlighted copy of the definition section of Orange Book as a template for discussions.

[joewad]

ATF interview for renewal: 28 Feb. DOJ Letter Of Authorization (LOA) dated 11 Mar for next 6 months (or until renewal action completed). FEL expires 1 May. Quick e-mail to ATF agent and reply reveals FBI behind on background checks.

[Kenny East]

Just got my renewal application, but my Permit doesn't expire until June... It will be mailed out soon. Wonder why the fbi are behind on background checks, supposed it could just be backlog from the shutdown.

[joewad]

ATF interview for renewal: 28 Feb. DOJ Letter Of Authorization (LOA) dated 11 Mar for next 6 months (or until renewal action completed). FEL expires 1 May. Quick e-mail to ATF agent and reply reveals FBI behind on background checks.

Received Renewal approval in mail today, 5 Apr 2019. Good till 1 May 2022.