Hello from Virginia

[Firefytr360]

Hey guys - happy to join the group. Think I'll learn a lot here! Am a certified shooter here in Virginia and also my native state of Ohio. Looking into getting my ATF type 54 - but have reservations due to DOT transport rules - i've been told that I'd need $5 million dollars of insurance coverage and a DOT number to transport ANY 1.3. I'm skeptical!

[displayfireworks1]

It sounds like you want to shoot fireworks displays for profit or start your own display company. In that case you may be correct. When we hear these type of questions we need to know what the intent of the user is. Some people light fireworks in a field to have fun and some people light fireworks in a field and change money for people to watch it at a specific time and date.

[Firefytr360]

I truly do not want to start a fireworks display company nor put displays on for money. I do work part time for a display company as an independent contractor here in Virginia, but my interest in a type 54 is so I can add salutes and quick match and some 1.3 cakes to a permitted show I do each year in Ohio. I am not compensated for the Ohio show in any manner - it is for family and friends. My fireworks employer is kind enough to help me with the insurance required for the Ohio permit. I'm hoping to get clarification on the DOT transport regs for 1.3 when it involves a show like this for which I am not compensated. Does this fall under "commerce?" Would I need the DOT number on my personal vehicle along with placards? BTW- I do have a CDL with haz-mat endorsement, as it is necessary for my fireworks job in Virginia.

[displayfireworks1]

You are moving too many steps forward. The first step is to obtain the ATF license so you can make a legal 1.3 purchase for your show in Ohio. If you need help understanding the process consider purchasing my ATF/DVD application package. Once most enthusiast become licensed the other steps start falling into place. Most people that think of all of the steps at once never take the first step. Actually the main step is the license.
As far as a CDL with Hazmat endorsement and DOT numbers. Do you think all of these hobbyist I helped out there carry those credentials?
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http://www.pyrotalk.com/shopping.php

[Firefytr360]

I have actually purchased your ATF application package and want very much to apply for the license. My dilemma is that my part time employer (the fireworks display company owner in Virginia) is convinced that I would need the DOT number and expensive insurance to legally transport 1.3. He is trying to discourage me from applying for fear that the DOT will be showing up on my doorstep to jnspect me, or the Federal Motor Safety guys will be waiting to pull me over and fine me huge amounts for transporting 1.3 for my Ohio show. I have tried to explain to him that if that was true, every year DOT would be arresting a couple hundred ATF 54 license holding PGI members who transport their 1.3 creations to the PGI convention! They'd make millions in fines!(sarcasm)! So - it's the last sentence in your post that I seek more elaboration on. Are there horror stories of hobbiest ATF 54 license holders being pulled over by the Motor Safety inspectors and being bullied? Being told that they somehow fall under "commerce" - the federal governement's favorite excuse to regulate every aspect of our lives? Being told they are breaking the law because they don't have a DOT number and $5 million dollar insurance policy to cover transportation liability?

[Firefytr360]

I have actually purchased your ATF application package and want very much to apply for the license. My dilemma is that my part time employer (the fireworks display company owner in Virginia) is convinced that I would need the DOT number and expensive insurance to legally transport 1.3. He is trying to discourage me from applying for fear that the DOT will be showing up on my doorstep to jnspect me, or the Federal Motor Safety guys will be waiting to pull me over and fine me huge amounts for transporting 1.3 for my Ohio show. I have tried to explain to him that if that was true, every year DOT would be arresting a couple hundred ATF 54 license holding PGI members who transport their 1.3 creations to the PGI convention! They'd make millions in fines!(sarcasm)! So - it's the last sentence in your post that I seek more elaboration on. Are there horror stories of hobbiest ATF 54 license holders being pulled over by the Motor Safety inspectors and being bullied? Being told that they somehow fall under "commerce" - the federal governement's favorite excuse to regulate every aspect of our lives? Being told they are breaking the law because they don't have a DOT number and $5 million dollar insurance policy to cover transportation liability?

[displayfireworks1]

I suspect your part time employer does not sell 1.3 fireworks to privately held ATF license holders on a regular basis. You do not see many display companies embracing what I do. I’m talking about the ones that are just display companies and do not also sell 1.3 in addition to displays. Pyrotecnico may be the only one on my advertiser list. Other than some of them are cheap, why do think that is?

[Firefytr360]

I wouldn't be purchasing any 1.3 from my Virginia employer for the show in Ohio. Ohio law is quite clear that I have to purchase from an Ohio fireworks wholesaler/retailer or a company that has the Ohio import license. LYNCH imports might be the closest. Sadly, Kellners does not currently have the import license.
Im still seeking a definitive answer to the DOT number/insurance question... maybe I need to contact the DOT/motor carrier safety people and get it in writing - their formal interpretation of what constitutes "commerce" thus triggering the requirement for a DOT number, with some specific language addressing pyrotechnic hobbiests and those in my position who want put on a show without compensation. As far as placarding goes, I would believe that it is still necessary when I would carry any quantity of 1.3.

[displayfireworks1]

I don't mean to be disrespectful but of the 4 or 5 statement's you make. The exact opposite is true.

[Firefytr360]

Please educate me Dave! I'm not looking for a debate, I am asking you anykne else on this great blog to help me completely understand the DOT /motor carrier safety transport rules as they apply to hobbyists and someone in my position who wants to get his ATF 54 and be able to transport 1.3 to my own uncompensated show. My employer here in Virginia is trying to dissuade me and believes that I will be required to get a DOT number and $5 million of insurance to transport 1.3. I'm asking for your help to get my facts straight because I need his support in signing off as contingency storage. I dont know that I can go it alone and successfully get local approval for a mini-magazine made from the metal tool box stored on my property. I certainly dont have enough property for a bigger magazine.
PLEASE believe me - I'm no fan of Ohio's super strict fireworks laws! BUT I did call Kellners about 2 monthes ago and asked them if they have the Ohio import license. The guy I spoke to told me they do not currently have the import license. If I recall, it's about $2750 per year!
DAVE, can you or anyone on this blog help me with DOT transport regulatations? I'M not worried about the ATF rules - they are relatively straight foward, and of course I will obey them.

[displayfireworks1]

How much is your fireworks budget and where you do plan on buying the fireworks?

[Firefytr360]

$2000. You might be intersted to know that this show could be sponsored by a volunteer fire department this next year. I understand different rules apply when a fire department is sponsoring it. The past few years, ive done a 1.4 show and purchased my product from Miller fireworks in Holland, Ohio. I want to find the closest 1.3 supplier to northwest Ohio. Would that be Lynch imports in Indiana?

[Firefytr360]

Im interrsted in delving into articles pyrotechnic too because a friend and I together have purchased a Cobra system - 90 cues so far with the audio box, scripting software, and Cobra Commander computer interface. Looking to design our first true pyromusical.

[displayfireworks1]

How does a person in the state of Virginia do a fireworks display three states away for a fire department in Ohio and its a for fun not for profit endeavor. I suspect that fire department has an event that coincides with the display. I suggest you call the fireworks company that is going to make the $2000 and ask them how to help you. There is always more to the story and I can see some of details emerging. If you want Articles of Pyrotechnics in Ohio visit my advertiser American Fireworks.

[cptnding]

How does a person in the state of Virginia do a fireworks display three states away for a fire department in Ohio and its a for fun not for profit endeavor. I suspect that fire department has an event that coincides with the display. I suggest you call the fireworks company that is going to make the $2000 and ask them how to help you. There is always more to the story and I can see some of details emerging. If you want Articles of Pyrotechnics in Ohio visit my advertiser American Fireworks.

And if all of this is true, what difference does it make with DOT and insurance requirements? Sorry if that is a dumb question but I'm not tracking. Is there a difference in transporting 1.3 to shoot in a "backyard" show in the DOT rules? If the transportation of 1.3 is not for profit or commerce then what's the difference? I realize one is completely (maybe) private and the other (VFD fundraiser) would have the public in attendance. Does that make a difference in DOT rules? Seems like there should be no difference unless one is "engaged in commerce" then it becomes commercial and involves the DOT. Or there is no difference in requirements

[displayfireworks1]

If one of the Ohio fireman that belongs there is ATF licensed and shooting the show it is one thing. However, if a man is coming from three states away to shoot the entire show , it looks more like commerce to me. Of the second one looks like a big work around to make it appear as it is not. You follow the money and the license. I suggest one of the Ohio fireman get licensed. And bring our boy here in to help set it up.

[Kenny East]

You're not required to placard 1.3 in transit for non commerce use... So how would the dot/commercial enforcement even know who to pull over? I have a cdl B but no hazmat, those guys have their hands full checking weights and driver's logs. I'm kinda with Dave, it doesn't sound like your display employer knows laws/regulations very well or at least isn't versed in the non commerce side of it.

Any way welcome to pyrotalk!

[cherrybomb1]

I think every state is different as far as DOT laws...but as long as your not doing a show for profit,you have your permit and bill of lading you should be alright.But you'll have to shoot the product the day you pick it up or have a contingency plan in place.

[joewad]

Back to your original post too many posts ago.......welcome aboard

3698

[displayfireworks1]

You can actually be cited for placing placards on your vehicle when you are not required to do so. So having a philosophy of trying to be over protected may not be a good thing

[Firefytr360]

Ok - so I understand that it sounds wierd why I would be doing the show in Ohio for a fire department. More background - I grew up in Ohio living literally next door to this volunteer fire department. When I go home every year and do this shoot for family and friends, guess who stands by with a fire engjne and who also signs off on my Ohio fireworks permit as the local AHJ (along with the county sherriff's office)? Yep - the volunteer department. For next years' show they have offered to hold the show out in the country at their new station location and wish to help raise donations to purchase the product. The public would likely be invited to watch it, but again I will not and do not wish to be compensated for it. This show is my chance to exercise my creativity, and hopefully this next year do a pyromusical. The reason I bring up the fact that a fire department is possibly sponsoring it, is that If I am correct, a fire department is legally allowed to purchase 1.3 fireworks without an ATF license. Doesn't mean I don't still want to obtain my 54.... it just adds an interesting twist..

[cherrybomb1]

I wouldn't worry about any of that until you get your type 54 permit.When you have your interview with the inspector they'll be more then happy to explain everything to you.My interview was about 2 hours and 45 min.Good Luck!

[displayfireworks1]

His interview will be 6 hours and 45 minutes with all these circumstances and stories. LOL. Sir send your application in

[Firefytr360]

Ok - message received. Im gonna watch your video again and fill out the application.

[PTFan]

Why not get contingency from a 1.3 retailer in Ohio and have them deliver your product? You don't transport nothing?
Or better yet join an Ohio fireworks club and they can explain how it all works.

[Firefytr360]

My challenge, PTFan, will be finding the 1.3 wholesaler/retailer within 100 miles of Northwest Ohio. I do like the idea of joining the Ohio fireworks club and asking for their advice and help with my show up there.