ATF Inspection

[bohicarlp]

Greeting all. An agent stopped by today for an inspection. I was not home but contacted her to set up a time. My renewal is not for another year. What is it I should probably expect them to ask for and or see? I have my disposition records and notes on my shows for my record keeping. I am not in commerce and no permits are needed where we do our show. Thanks

[Mattp]

They have the right to randomly stop by and check your papers.. i remember that being discussed with me at the interview... as long as your papaerwork thus far is in order.. you should be fine

[displayfireworks1]

Do you have a magazine and/or did an unusual fireworks or explosive event occur in your geographic area. Also when was your last purchase

[rreffner]

They have the right to randomly stop by and check your papers.. i remember that being discussed with me at the interview... as long as your papaerwork thus far is in order.. you should be fine

I was also told in my interview that although they commonly inspect around renewal, if you are a distance away from headquarters they will often stop if they are in the area, to avoid excess trips. I was also told that for first inspections they are generally lenient on small mistakes.
I pretty much am always expecting an inspection. I got my permit in August, have made 2 purchases. Fully expecting a 'newbie' visit. If I'm wrong, oh well.

[bohicarlp]

I do not have a magazine. Also, my last purchases were in June of this year and the last show I did was June 30th. Their headquarters are about 30 min away. And to the best of my knowledge there has been fireworks or events in my area in awhile. My records are in order. I think she seemed aggravated because she has stopped by now twice and I was not home because I was away working.

[displayfireworks1]

They always get aggravated if they come back twice. They will cite the hours of operation you listed on your application. I always tell people when you live close to your local state ATF office always expect them to just show up once you apply for the license. Now, if you live 2 hours away or longer they will most likely call. I think it is reasonable to ask the nature of the inspection. You need to memorialize the event. Make your own document including time and date of the visit , name of the Inspector, copy and file every document the Inspector looked at. Also note the time and date they showed and you were not home in addition to the time and date they did show. Did you see the make and model of the vehicle all of that should be noted.
Being this is not a fireworks holiday in United States , I suspect something is going on in your area or with the company you have contingency with. If you know other ATF license holders that deal with your contingency company , see if they received a similar visit. From the sound of it , I doubt they are investigating you. I do suspect they canvasing the area where something occurred. Do not post the company you made your purchase from.

[Mattp]

I havent had any interaction other than the interview yet.. but i still think youll be fime.. youve done nothing wrong, and all your papers are in order.. on the application i put down my business hours late in the day.. so most likely id be home.. also coincidently their offices are closed at that time.. lol

[yoshisbar]

My renewal is not for another year.

when you say that, it is A FULL year, or 6 months? I just did my 3 year interview last week, and mine doesn't expire till march 2019...
I learned that you need an inspection before your renewal, so that inspector can say "ok you can renew" Then the ATF justs send you the bill and paperwork to actually renew a month or so before it expires.

but that said, It wasn't a cold call, they did call before hand..

[displayfireworks1]

At Yoshisbar , that may be exactly what it is. The inspection may be in anticipation of renewal. I'm thinking they may have a large number of renewal applicants in that first and second quarter of next year and they trying to get the jump on things during the slow season.

[Crush630]

What part of Michigan?

[bohicarlp]

I am in the southeast part of Michigan. I understand they can stop by when they want. I mean not to aggravate them when they stop by numerous times. However, I have a job and the application is not shall we say geared to the hobbyist. So how can list business operation hours when you have another job? The agent will be here in a few hours. Will post on how I think it went.

[displayfireworks1]

What did you write as your hours of operation on your application? That is what they are going by. You are going to have to inconvenience yourself once every 3 years. I may be missing something here. Have we determined is this a renewal vist?

[PyroDre]

They have the right to randomly stop by and check your papers.. i remember that being discussed with me at the interview... as long as your papaerwork thus far is in order.. you should be fine

If you don't have a magazine, exactly what papers do they want to see...receipts? Because that's literally all i have is a bunch of receipts from my purchase.

[Mattp]

If you don't have a magazine, exactly what papers do they want to see...receipts? Because that's literally all i have is a bunch of receipts from my purchase.

Lol.. me too.l!!! And yes.. they want to see all of your aquisition info.. not all of it is on the receipts.. they want the manufacturer name,, date of manufacture,shift code, ex# and importer name off of everythimg you get.. basically write down or take photos of every label and give them the info on it.. along with your reciepts... this is only my first year with it..so i could be wrong and it may be overkill,, but thats how i understood it when it was told to me by my inspector. She gave me a sample form of what was to be filled out .. i literally remade it without the word sample on it


3690

[displayfireworks1]

At bohicarlp: Be great to get a follow up comment on how it all went. Most 1,3 fireworks distributor receipts have this manufacturing , weight , etc data the ATF is looking for. If you do not have a magazine, just keep all of your purchase receipts. Offer to copy something if you have the capacity to do so. I suggest to wait and see what receipts they ask for. Lately they seem to be only asking for receipts for purchases made in the last year. Then, if it has been longer than one year since your last purchase , they start suggesting you no longer renew the license in the future. Apparently in some areas of the country there are too many ATF fireworks license holders. Some may not be making any purchases and they may be trying to get you to drop it for the next review period. They can ask you for all of your receipts over a three year licensing period, or they may only want to see a small time period from that three year period. A common strategy on their part if to first go to your contingency distributor and see what all your purchased. Then show up at your interview and act like they do not know anything and ask you for purchase receipts from your contingency. Once you are licensed you can purchase 1.3 anywhere in United States. If you are making a purchase outside of your contingency I doubt they would know during your interview until they see the receipt.

[Mattp]

Very good tidbit of info...i didnt want to do anythkng wrong to piss them off.. so i guess its a CYA strategy.. but good to know its not usually as necessary

[displayfireworks1]

You know sometimes I think these ATF interviews cover too much stuff and license holders with contingencies may not understand the basics like keep all your purchase receipts for your next inspection. I know here in Pennsylvania they caught so many people storing 1.3 in an unapproved fashion they now add an additional document during the interview emphasizing that one point. I was told the licensee’s were claiming they had no knowledge of not being allowed to keep the product just anywhere once they legally purchased it.

[Mattp]

I would think if one got caught storing 1.3 improperly.. that would be the go to statement.. "well i didnt know".. lol.. they make it VERY clear in this process.. about how to store professional firework and explosives.. i know where i live.. they dont deal with a whole lot of people getting type 54 permits.. so even the inspectors themselves needed to brush up a little on the exact rules


Still no response from bohicarlp.. hope all went well!!!

[displayfireworks1]

There are many variations in what is being interpreted by the applicant during the interview process. Some people hear something other than what is being said by the Inspector. They then retell the story and will say that is what he told them. This is why it all has to be in writing

[bohicarlp]

I apologize for the long delay. After my interview I was out of town for a bit. The interview went well. I had all my paperwork, receipts, acquisitions, and pretty recent letter of contingency. The downfall were my hours of operation. She strongly recommended that I change my hours for future visits. She wanted to look at paperwork and take a look on my property for magazines and see if there was any spent product. My renewal is not for another year and I am sure I will be getting another visit beforehand. There was much talk on magazines, but that does not take with me as of now. And yes purchase receipts she was very happy to see.

[rreffner]

I apologize for the long delay. After my interview I was out of town for a bit. The interview went well. I had all my paperwork, receipts, acquisitions, and pretty recent letter of contingency. The downfall were my hours of operation. She strongly recommended that I change my hours for future visits. She wanted to look at paperwork and take a look on my property for magazines and see if there was any spent product. My renewal is not for another year and I am sure I will be getting another visit beforehand. There was much talk on magazines, but that does not take with me as of now. And yes purchase receipts she was very happy to see.

Glad to hear it all went well. Do you mean she wanted to look for unspent product? I am still relatively new but haven?t heard of them asking to have a look around unless you have a magazine. And if you did indeed mean spent product, I?d be interested to know the reason she wanted to see remnants of items you already shot off.
I guess they?re all different and have different expectations. I?d be happy to let an agent have a look around my place, nothing illegal here but I?d want it to be relatively quick. I would be annoyed with a 3 hour ?look around?. But if that?s what I have to do that?s what I?d do.

[displayfireworks1]

At bohicarlp: When you say she wanted to look at your property for spent product , did she tell you that what she was doing or was that your assessment of it?

[Mattp]

Wow!!! Thats definitey kind of crazy..with .having this permit.. they do have the right to come inspect your property though.. or at least thets what was told at my interview.. i would suspect something happened in the area if thats the case though.. i feel like the atf has much better things to be doing than randomly inspecting a lawful permit holder... but who knows.. or maybe you blew some stuff off. And someone made some phone calls to complain??

[Pyro Dave]

They inspect legal permit holders because black market 1.3 usually starts by being legal somewhere.
Problem is the guys buying 1.3 and saying they shot it but storing it in the shed and selling it to their buddies. I expect the frequency of these searches to happen more often with more and more uninformed people getting type 54's without fully understanding the rules and regulations that come with it.

I've had local agents out to my residence about 5 times in 9 years. I do not own a magazine and only use contingency. They are very easy to work with and it's not a terrible inconvenience, since I knew it was something that can/will happen and I still opted to get my type 54 anyway.

[bohicarlp]

At Dave: At one time during my inspection she asked if she could take a look in my garage. I said yes. Inside of my garage she scanned back and forth and I was there. I asked is there something in particular you are looking for. She mentioned she wanted to take a look and see if there was any spent product. I was puzzled by this. She said to me "You would be surprised." I cannot quote this word for word but she mentioned there have been times they have come across products such as cakes that only fired of roughly half the cake and people at some point have stored the half spent product in their garages.

Mattp: There is no way any would have called on me to complain due to the fact I only have a small plot of land and my show is far away from my homestead.


And as another note, If anyone every asks me for any product I would say piss off. Get your own license and do with it what you please. I enjoy this hobby very much and have worked hard to be able to pursue this art and improve as the years go on. Thank you to Dave and all you other fellow members here that helped me to get my license and answer all my newbie questions.

[rreffner]

At Dave: At one time during my inspection she asked if she could take a look in my garage. I said yes. Inside of my garage she scanned back and forth and I was there. I asked is there something in particular you are looking for. She mentioned she wanted to take a look and see if there was any spent product. I was puzzled by this. She said to me "You would be surprised." I cannot quote this word for word but she mentioned there have been times they have come across products such as cakes that only fired of roughly half the cake and people at some point have stored the half spent product in their garages.

Mattp: There is no way any would have called on me to complain due to the fact I only have a small plot of land and my show is far away from my homestead.


And as another note, If anyone every asks me for any product I would say piss off. Get your own license and do with it what you please. I enjoy this hobby very much and have worked hard to be able to pursue this art and improve as the years go on. Thank you to Dave and all you other fellow members here that helped me to get my license and answer all my newbie questions.

That's interesting. I'm still new, and it doesn't matter I suppose, but my guess is she was actually looking for new unspent product. Glad it all worked out. I think PyroDave is on to something, they are knowing there are more licensees out there and by default there will be more violations, intentional or not. When word of things like your inspection get out, people will think twice about illegally storing that case of 1.3 in their garage or basement.
Funny how you get your permit and everyone wants you to get them stuff. I was recently asked via FB message if I could get someone 'a 10" shell'. I said no, and they said 'just one man'. I said no, and told them to not ask me again. I literally just got my permit in early September. Not only would I never do this for anyone, but this guy got into drugs a while back and is a convicted felon. In addition, he will not be invited to my shows for fear of theft.
Its a fun hobby so far, but with it comes some responsibility. I researched for a long time and mulled over it for several months before I committed to the responsibility involved, then I got my license. Again, an interesting and informative post. Haven't heard of this happening before, perhaps others have.

[displayfireworks1]

At bohicarlp: I'm glad you stated that you gave her permission to look around as opposed to claiming the ATF can search you house anytime they feel like it. Police and law enforcement do this all the time. They do not need search warrants or even probable cause if you give them permission to search your house or car or whatever. If you ever watch those cops shows they do that all the time. "Got any drug or weapons in the car sir"? "No" "Mind if I look?" "No go ahead" .
I doubt she was looking for spent product, more like any product. On a side note, one of my advertiser distributors got cited by the ATF for not having a partially shot Article of Pyrotechnic item in a magazine. Somehow having a partially used AP item needs stricter storage than it normally would. I ask him, why did you do that? He said he wanted to see what the product looked like ,but did not want to fire the entire cake, so he just fired 2 tubes. LOL

[Crush630]

At bohicarlp: I'm glad you stated that you gave her permission to look around as opposed to claiming the ATF can search you house anytime they feel like it. Police and law enforcement do this all the time. They do not need search warrants or even probable cause if you give them permission to search your house or car or whatever. If you ever watch those cops shows they do that all the time. "Got any drug or weapons in the car sir"? "No" "Mind if I look?" "No go ahead" .
I doubt she was looking for spent product, more like any product. On a side note, one of my advertiser distributors got cited by the ATF for not having a partially shot Article of Pyrotechnic item in a magazine. Somehow having a partially used AP item needs stricter storage than it normally would. I ask him, why did you do that? He said he wanted to see what the product looked like ,but did not want to fire the entire cake, so he just fired 2 tubes. LOL

I have also heard of ATF looking for cases with mismatched products. For example half colors half salute cases.

[displayfireworks1]

How about half color and Bright Flower. Lol
Is it wrong to mix them. Didn't that use to be a good thing

[yoshisbar]

I was just recently told, can't store just salutes in my magazine (type 4) which I knew that, and then told, throw a color one in....

That is for pieces parts.. if you have a job box mag, DON'T buy a case of salutes, that will get you in trouble.. That is why they mix them to get around that..

[flatlander]

Greeting all. An agent stopped by today for an inspection. I was not home but contacted her to set up a time. My renewal is not for another year. What is it I should probably expect them to ask for and or see? I have my disposition records and notes on my shows for my record keeping. I am not in commerce and no permits are needed where we do our show. Thanks

That is awesome no permits are needed where you do your show. I have not been able to get a permit for 1.3 in Michigan where we would do our shows.

[Kenny East]

Must be back to work at the ATF... Woke up before work to a missed phone call and a note on my door from an inspector... Wanted to do my compliance inspection today. It's ok, he'll come back Friday... Didn't seem annoyed by me not answering the phone or door. Let y'all know how it goes this Friday, my first inspection. Up for renewal!

[Mattp]

Must be back to work at the ATF... Woke up before work to a missed phone call and a note on my door from an inspector... Wanted to do my compliance inspection today. It's ok, he'll come back Friday... Didn't seem annoyed by me not answering the phone or door. Let y'all know how it goes this Friday, my first inspection. Up for renewal!

WOW!!! do you work nights??? or did you put a really early time on your hours of operation?? surprised they would come outside of their office hours, unless you were on his way to the office..lol... either way.. good luck!!! yes let us know how it goes

[displayfireworks1]

I suspect some of these Inspectors see some of us on the way home if they live in the area. Particularly at off hours. If you are not home that may be a bonus and he gets home early that day. I wish I could get some inside information on how the ATF Inspector work load is assigned. Do they have to see X number of applicants in a day or ?. One Inspector told me they receive extra hazard pay when they are involved in a flash powder detail. This why I tell new ATF applicants from the time you see the ATF cash your check going forward, answer all phone calls irrespective of what the caller ID says and answer all knocks at the door. They have been know to just show up. My research tells me the chance of them just showing up during an inspection goes up the closer you live to the local state ATF office. If you are 3 hours away, they will problem call first.
Kenny , curious how many mile you are from the local ATF state office?

[Kenny East]

My inspector is out of the grand rapids office... About an hour away maybe 70 miles... My normal work hours are 2pm-2am most days... He came by and called at 9am... And with the Nyquil I took I wasn't hearing anyone. He called today and rescheduled my inspection from this Friday to next Tuesday.

I may have to ask him a few of these questions... My old inspector would always call before she stopped by. I made sure the felc has my new phone number when I changed phone companies. Who's got questions... We will test my inspector's knowledge.

[Mattp]

Ohhhhh.. ok.. now that makes lots of sense.. i saw you posted that first post at 5am.. and most peoples ?before work? is pretty early.. but for you with those hours.. 9am is still bed time!!!

[displayfireworks1]

Kenny just my advice , I would not ask the Inspector any questions. My advice to applicants is do not put the Inspector on a quiz show. Let them ask you questions you answer it , then be quiet. They are smart enough to give you some generic answer anyway. The written and sign documentation from the event is the only real conversation that takes place.
I am hearing from a few license holders that during renewal are instructed to do this or that for the next 3 year inspection. It goes the whole spectrum from telling them the thickness of the metal on the hood is not up to spec, to get a state certification, tell the fire depart something etc. Whatever the instructions are , it does not stop the license renewal process. I think the inspector knows he/she will not be the person seeing you to renew in the next 3 year period. They apparently trying to cover themselves in some sort of gray area. The ATF has some sort of policy to rotate the Inspectors, as the appearance of the ever changing face of the ATF , plus one inspector may see something the other one does not is the theory.

[Kenny East]

Probably sound advice Dave... I am looking forward to seeing their new online inspection tool. They don't do a paper checklist anymore like my last inspection.

I will let you guys know if I find anything interesting during it though... He mentioned new forms and an up to date orange book. Not sure what if anything has changed, the last copies of it they have me are from 2012.

[displayfireworks1]

If they do the checklists on line, you are still going to need a hard copy or email pdf file. If you don't mind let me know the details. This is new to me.

[Kenny East]

Idk will let you know, I have my last check list... From the way he was talking sounds like they go over everything on the list on a tablet and then file it... Not sure if they send me a copy or not... Will find out Tuesday

[displayfireworks1]

They are going to have to give you a copy of something in expectation of you (us) complying with it. During my inspections I offer to copy documents on my scanner/printer.

[Kenny East]

I'll make sure I have my copier set up before he gets here.

[Kenny East]

So it went fine, they did the checklist on a computer... They have a paper copy as well, that must be signed. You sign the one on the computer as well, then they mail/email you a copy of it. Brave guy he made the hour+ drive even though we had freezing rain all night. Pretty much every local school was closed today.

Said my renewal paperwork will be out to me soon.

[shake the cove]

I just had my ATF agent visit yesterday in anticipation of my renewal that comes up for July 1st. This will be my first renewal. This visit was rescheduled twice. She had called my wife then all correspondence was by e-mail.
The agent was polite and helpful,I was not under the impression "they're out to get you". We went out and inspected the magazine and did an inventory. Hint guys ,don't open any product keep it sealed from your supplier when you can. She did not ask to open any factory sealed items but any product that had seal/tape cut I had to open each and count inside . Interesting however I had to list my e-match boxes but she wanted a count of the number in each box even with the amount listed on the box. Anyone else asked to do that with your e-match?
She made a recommendation that each product be listed in a seperate Daily Summery of Magazines Transaction sheet . I had all of mine one one sheet. I only had 9 items go out and 6 of them were small cakes called battle of color packaged 12/1 . So this means out of 11 product I have left I need a sheet for each. They also go over and have you initial the ATF Acknowledgment of Federal Explosive Regulations sheet that has over 50 items and yes they read and go over each one. All in all this took about 2 hours. She had trouble with wi-fi at first not easy in area I live in very rural and then could not access her ATF internal website. Why am I not surprised:D. I should see my application renewal by mid May, she said it should also cost less. My last purchase of product was in may 2018 at Lynch Imports out of Sunman IN. On a last item I was required to send my local fire chief another letter about storage and magazine location to them but she said I do not need the 1.3 placards on the outside of my magazine. That needs to be done every renewal. Hope this experience is helpful for others.