1.4 salute

[Mattp]

Ok.. i know this topic has been brought up before and is a slightly taboo subject.. but i cannot find the old threads containing it.. and my question is "hypothetical"..So "if" there was a 1.4 consumer salute shell that complies with the 60g composition rule is it a legal 1.4 item?? And if so why are they not sold at stores ?? Or is a consumer salute product illegal no matter what the composition?? Im just asking about the facts on the law of such a product..nothing else.!!! lol

[jknepp1954]

long story short - there is no such thing as a "legal consumer salute"....PERIOD!

Here is a link to 1 thread. AS you can see it was locked and closed for quite obvious reasons.
http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/showthread.php?5908-quot-Consumer-quot-salutes&highlight=Consumer+salutes

[Mattp]

That is exactly the type of answer i was looking for.. no discussion necessary.. lol.. thank you!!

[displayfireworks1]

His question is a reasonable one. If a shell can contain 60 gram of composition, why not 60 gram of just boom composition. This is where the language in the regulations calls it "Intended to produce audible report" . If it is intended to produce an audible report , which is what a salute is. Then the boom composition is limited to 130 mg in the air and only 50 mg on the ground as in a firecracker.
I would have to type another 30 paragraphs to explain but this is kind of where we are now with this current metal in fireworks debate. If I shoot a canister artillery shell in the day , is the boom it makes a salute or is the boom a secondary effect of a color shell breaking. If the CPSC determines it is boom as it primary effect , then the entire contents are weighed against the 130 mg limit. I have read reports where they do this with a 500 gram color cake and make the report that the product is in violation of the 130 mg limit and claim it contains 1000 x or more than the regulatory requirement.
Lets now say I'm standing in favor of the new metal in fireworks debate at 1%. From what I know about fireworks, the metal is what gives it the boom as a primary and secondary effect. Granted you can boom with whistle mix and a few other compositions, but metal is the best and most energetic. Thus, the entire debate is down to what will the allowable percentage of metal be in shells designed for color effect.
.
Some importers bring in real salutes and just tell China to label as 1.4 , those are not part of the current regulatory debate, they are just plain deceptively marked. These products are what make novice users of fireworks profess they actually purchased legal salutes. There are so many lies and deceptions in pyrotechnic products it probably hard to follow for the average user.

[Kenny East]

Is the proposed new regulations for 1% metal in the break charge or total composition? I've wondered if the couldn't just make some bright white stars and just bump up the oxidizer a bit on the formula... It wouldn't pass the screen so it wouldn't be considered break charge. Just my curiosity from a failed homemade purple shell that broke with no color, only noise. Think the issue was that my home brew formula that burned a nice purple without confinement, burned much faster when inside a shell.

I am waiting to see where the new regulations go, what gets adopted and what doesn't. As well as how it affects the consumer market in the us.

[countryboy7978]

The metal is only affecting the break charge. Essentially any fine metal and oxidizer can be considered flash powder. That’s what they are trying to regulate. The 130mg flash powder limit in aerials was NEVER intended to be for break charges. It was as intended to allow completed firecrackers containing the full 2 grain load to be used as rocket headers (think Texas Pop), shell inserts (Sky Racket, Rainbow and Thunder, Battle in the Sky), and Roman candles with firecrackers as stars (Star Light, Liling Salute). It was never intended to mean 130 mg sprinkled into a BP break charge. Remember when these standards were adopted in the 1970s, cakes and shells were a very small percentage of the Class C market. The ones that were available were weak dump style breaks where the stars where held in by a paper disk and were ejected out the end of the tube. Today’s breaks were mostly unheard of in small cake inserts. Today crackle stars/dragon eggs have largely replaced what these 130mg reports would have been used for.

Any firework that has a metal break today that you can actually notice, is probably non compliant. You would never notice 130mg of flash dispersed into several grams of BP, whistle, or other organic break. This new limit is more to put pressure on importers and make it easier to find non compliant product, which sure as the day is long, will continue to be around.

[countryboy7978]

What some importers and manufacturers have likely taken advantage of (and I’m not referring to heavily overloaded breaks like Thunder King or Battle of Colors clones) is that 130mg of metal powder could be used and would make up 1/2gram or so of completed flash powder. For most flash formulas the metal powder is only 20-30% of the formula. Since it’s damn near impossible to sift out just the “flash powder”, they want to eliminate flash powder completely, therefore all the fine metal has to go. While I feel that small flash broken inserts should be allowed, the whole Sky is falling mentality is mostly overblown. There are lots of great items that don’t contain flash. I’ll bet that many of our current products will be little affected.

[Mattp]

When i was a kid i thought the flashing thunder roman Candles were so great.. and they were.. it was like shooting an m-80 into the air... now if you can even find them its like shooting a firecracker out.. i used to think maybe it was just me and my "everything was better when i was a kid attitude".. lol.. but now i know.. they definitely were better and louder... BUT on the flip side.. artillery shells are 1000x better now than when i was a kid.. i agree.. as i dont see why they cant make a fully compliant product that has a minimal break .. but i also dont know much about all the compounds and powders

[countryboy7978]

Flashing Thunder Roman candles by Temple of Heaven did fire salutes at one time. They were of course not compliant as Class C at the time and were detuned and the full strength were sold as Class B to license holders. The same happened to Battle of Colors, Thunder King, Firing Squad, Shimmering Crackling Gold and several other DOT cakes and candles. Compliant breaks such as whistle mix or KP break (a perchlorate black powder) can achieve good breaks for Class C. Flash powder breaks are easy to pick out though. The white flash as the shell opens coupled with the sharp report and symmetrical pattern make flash breaks more appealing despite their non compliance with CPSC guidelines.

[beaver nation]

the whole Sky is falling mentality is mostly overblown. There are lots of great items that don’t contain flash. I’ll bet that many of our current products will be little affected.

I don't believe that at all. From what I know none of the 60g canister shells on the market will be legal and according to one person who has a XRP scanner 50% of cakes will fail the proposed limitations.

Now to know who is right on this issue would require actual testing with the names of items as to pass or fail.

How do you know there are "lots of great items" that do not have over 1% fine metallic powder in the burst charges? Because I would bet almost anything that none of the best performing cakes or shells will pass and essentially if this does get implemented that ALL of these items will be changed as to performance (and not for the better). Another guy I know claims that metallic powder is necessary to properly ignite the stars and if they really did use BP that the % of stars that don't ignite will increase substantially which will not only mean the items won't have as big or loud of a break but also the visual effects will be degraded as well. What is mind blowing is that we are NOT talking about overloads but rather items that have been tested by AFSL and CPSC for years and been approved!! the USA already has weak consumer fireworks to most of the world and it is going to get weaker not because of "safety" but because of either 1.3g industry or Large 1.4g companies that dislike competition with high quality 1.4g eroding their sales of crap 1.4g items....