Canister shell effects question

[dirtysouthpyro]

Why are some effects seemingly unique to NOAB in United States consumer fireworks? Some cakes that come to mind are Big Bang Theory, Cloud Nine, Kings Ring/Ring! Ring!, Perfect Pyro, and Whacky Tobacky. Why aren't similar effects be put into consumer canister shells? I understand that effects like rings probably require a ball shell rather than a canister shell but why don't we really ever see effects like large brocades with long hang times or crosettes coming out of canister shells? Is it just not economical since NOABs generally cost much more per shot than consumer artillery does? The only other reason I can think of besides cost issues and the shape of the shell is the size of the shell but from the research I have done it seems like the larger shell sizes of NOAB's is really just illusory since many manufacturers just put a smaller shell within a bigger shell. I absolutely love consumer artillery and have a blast shooting it off but it would be nice to see some more effects that are currently only available in NOAB.

[MtnViewPyro]

Great question and I don’t have the answer. However, the only ‘shell’ I’ve seen come close to a NOAB is 1.4pro single shots. I’ve never deconstructed one to see what was inside but I almost guarantee they are ball shells. Will be interesting to see what others say as they know much more and have deconstructed stuff.

[chriskrc]

I agree with Mtnviewpyro on the ball shell part. Ball shells have a more symmetrical break than canisters, hence the specific effect in ball shells.

[PyroJoeNEPA]

A ball shell will give you a symmetrical break--a canister will not. That being said, your effects in a ball shell are limited by the amount of space you have. The size of the individual stars in a 2 1/2" [60 gram 3" NOAB===not a 1.3 "real 2 1/2"] is limited so the burn tims is not long--and to get certain effects you need a filler with your break.
For example: a "ring" shell has a ring of stars around the circumference of the ball and that is filled with black powder coated rice hulls to "break" the shell and propel the stars outward to give you the ring effect. The rice hulls are necessary to give a "soft break" so the stars are not burned out by the break charge--which would happen if you used flash powder or whistle mix to break the shell open. The larger the individual stars are the longer they will burn----but there won't be as many in the ring as if you used smaller stars. If you used smaller stars you would get more stars in the ring but they would burn out faster and the effect would disappear much quicker.
There are 1.4g rockets with ball ends containing ring shell & smiley face effects---they are nice--but only last a second. Blink and you miss it.
The same holds true to many other effects---horsetails & waterfalls, crossettes, farfalle, etc. You simply can not get symmetrical effects out of a canister shell---the cans do have some of these effects--but they are very sloppy looking.
If you are a "purist" when it comes to patterns you will find that the 1.4g line just doesn't make the grade.
I have found that the minimum shell size for pattern shells is 4". I have made "Purple Heart" shells and found that anything smaller than a 6" shell just didn't look that good. Again--only my opinion.
You simply can not fit all the "stuff" necessary to make a nice brocade or crossette into a 2 1/2" diameter ball casing. I hope this helps.

[dirtysouthpyro]

Thanks Joe that helps clarify things for me. I assume space is also an issue for effects like Nishiki Kamuro which doesn't really seem to exist outside 1.3g and 1.4Pro?

[Kenny East]

I couldn't imagine making crossettes small enough to fit a reasonable amount into a consumer sized canister shell. Quite a bit of it is space, the rest probably comes down to cost. It's cheaper to bulk fill a can with stars and break charge, opposed to placing stars in a specific pattern in each shell. Crosettes are very time consuming to make and usually are not small enough to fit inside consumer shells. There are a few shells on the consumer market that have some pattern placement... Alien Made by magnus has some shells with a layer of crackle between color layers.

I would assume that if they scaled down the effects for use in consumer, they would be very underwhelming.

[PyroJoeNEPA]

Thanks Joe that helps clarify things for me. I assume space is also an issue for effects like Nishiki Kamuro which doesn't really seem to exist outside 1.3g and 1.4Pro?

Exactly--the size of the star determines the burn time--and smaller stars will burn out before they can form the blossoming effect necessary for a Nashiki Kamuro.

[PyroJoeNEPA]

I couldn't imagine making crossettes small enough to fit a reasonable amount into a consumer sized canister shell.

Kenny--I never really thought about it until you mentioned it--but if you look at the 1.4g consumer "crossette" cakes--each break is a single shot breaking into four elements---so they are using one crossette star in each tube. The Dominator 1.4g pro slice cakes are this way also--but with a little more diameter tube to work with, thus a larger star and larger crossette break.
Things that make you go "hmmmmmmmmm". LOL.

[jknepp1954]

There is a Nishiki Kamuru cake made by Winda - a 3" NOAB called Mother of all Bombs (MOAB).
We at Kneppy's have it on order for the 2018 season....

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Why are some effects seemingly unique to NOAB in United States consumer fireworks? Some cakes that come to mind are Big Bang Theory, Cloud Nine, Kings Ring/Ring! Ring!, Perfect Pyro, and Whacky Tobacky. Why aren't similar effects be put into consumer canister shells? I understand that effects like rings probably require a ball shell rather than a canister shell but why don't we really ever see effects like large brocades with long hang times or crosettes coming out of canister shells? Is it just not economical since NOABs generally cost much more per shot than consumer artillery does? The only other reason I can think of besides cost issues and the shape of the shell is the size of the shell but from the research I have done it seems like the larger shell sizes of NOAB's is really just illusory since many manufacturers just put a smaller shell within a bigger shell. I absolutely love consumer artillery and have a blast shooting it off but it would be nice to see some more effects that are currently only available in NOAB.

Sounds like you need to work with Dave and his industry contacts to develop a new kind of effect!

[Rick_In_Tampa]

There is a Nishiki Kamuru cake made by Winda - a 3" NOAB called Mother of all Bombs (MOAB).
We at Kneppy's have it on order for the 2018 season....

I absolutely LOVE that effect!! Very unique in the 1.4G realm IMHO.

[dirtysouthpyro]

Sounds like you need to work with Dave and his industry contacts to develop a new kind of effect!

Sadly I don't have the capital or the business experience to make something like that work. I am convinced however that if a company was able to make "premium" reloadable canister shells that mimicked some of the effects currently only available in NOAB and properly labeled them so they could be matched up for shows that that there would definitely be a market for them even if the wholesale price was substantially more than current shell kits (and it would have to be). I actually contacted a company that makes fireworks over the weekend with some basic questions about custom fireworks and found a someone who sells them but there is a minimum order of 50 cases and there is still no guarantee that they could actually produce any of these unique effects or if they could provide them what the quality would be like. When the new 2018 stock of fireworks are available for sale I plan on purchasing a few different NOABs that offer unique effects and dissecting a shell out of each one just so I can get a better idea of how these effects are made. I agree that the Nishiki Kamuru cake from Winda that Kneppy posted looks amazing the world is definitely getting brighter for those of us who can only shoot 1.4

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Sadly I don't have the capital or the business experience to make something like that work.

I just saw a 500G cake with Dave's picture on it. I've got to believe he knows something about the business side of it including how to get it financed. Just depends on how much effort you're willing to invest in the idea I guess. Doesn't cost anything to ask!

[dirtysouthpyro]

I appreciate your faith in me but I am just some guy who likes fireworks so I'll leave the business side of this to the professionals. I would be ecstatic if Dave brought this idea to the people at World Class but like I said in the original post I'm not even sure how feasible it is to add these effects into canister shells. I would love to see them him the market eventually but I'm not holding my breath