Place your bets

[displayfireworks1]

As a member on pyrotalk forums you may see me list statistics of ATF license holders of the various states in United States and their respective counties. I obtained this information from a listing I requested and received in 2012 under the "Freedom of Information Act" (FOIA). The listing of ATF Fireworks related license holders is fragmented, coded and not well organized. In 2012 I found a Microsoft Excel expert to organize the list for me. One of the things I do is help enthusiast obtain ATF licensure to advance their hobby, thus the information is valuable to me. In May 2016 I attempted to obtained an updated listing. I need this information for various reasons. However, everyone should know, when a citizen make a FOIA, you do not have to list a reason why you want the information. Ten months later, here is the response I received. I have a few different theories why I received this denial. I will be moving into the appeal process as outlined in the attached document. i will not reveal my strategy in my attempt to win the appeal but I hope to successful and obtain the information.
This is your chance to place you bet, on appeal, will I be successful and receive the updated 2017 listing of ATF fireworks holders in United States or will I be further denied on appeal? Why 10 months after my request am I suddenly receiving this answer? Why not three months ago or two months from now? Comments are welcome.
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http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=1923&stc=1
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http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=1924&stc=1

[liame]

im going to say denied due to 5 usc SS 552 (b) (7) (F)

[Captaindlapnuts]

They'll deny. You should know by now the Govt. can and will do anything they want, legal or not. It's been 10 months simply because that's when they felt like it. Alternatively, you could make some statistics up...

[shake the cove]

Wow, what a bunch of government gobbly-gook. Seriously will endanger that persons life or physical safety. I wonder if they disclose the FFL holders ( ones that have license to buy sell guns). You can bet my state know I have a Type 54 license and since my fire cheif knows it and I live in a town of 3000 and a county of 30,000 others know
.FYI got a xmas card once that my address label fell off preprinted sticker type and only return address on the back showed the sender was from Conneticut the mail person knew we had relocated based on I guess other mail. You live in rural areas they know.
Hope Trump cuts that staff by 20% or more . We actually pay for a Cheif of disclosure division. Wonder how much staff they have. Sigh Sorry about the gov't rant:cool:

[displayfireworks1]

One of my sources told me, the backlog of FOIA at the ATF level is backed up to 2013. Why would my request from May 2016 get a response ahead of the 2013 backlog? This is my theory, with the recent election of Resident Trump and his pledge to make the government more efficient. I suspect in an effort to bring the backlog of FOIA down, someone made a decision to deny any request that has the least bit of doubt in a fast attempt to bring the backlog number down, thus 2 months from now when someone looks at the ATF FOIA backlog, the total number will still be high and untimely, however the numbers will be lower than they were 3 or 4 months ago. It’s a paper shuffle from their desk back to my desk. They are now denying something they gave me in 2012. I will now shuffle the paper back to their desk in the form of an appeal. I bet if you would check with the Office of Information Policy (next step in the appeal process), they will be noticing a sudden increase in the number of new FOIA appeal request over the next 90 day period. My guess on 10% of denials at the first level will appeal.
I will not list all of my strategies to try to win this but I believe I can win it. The only thing that concerns me is Office of Information Policy may get that same reduce the numbers on the list philosophy and rubber stamp the first level decision to deny.
In a related issue, I spoke to a 1.3 dealer once and to cut to the story, I thought they would have a list of all of the ATF Fireworks license holders in United States, I was told they do not. Thus the potential for an ATF license holder losing his license and still purchasing 1.3 fireworks can easily occur. If someone was smart enough to copy their license before surrendering it they can most likely continue to use it. If you were smart enough to have you ATF license on file at multiple distributors, I do not see how they would all know if you lost your license. Unless this has changed recently and I am not aware. If a 1.3 dealer in United States wants to comment outside of the forums on this last paragraph please email me confidentially at pyrotalk@gmail.com
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I see a comment about gun dealers in Tennessee etc. You will like this link
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/listing-federal-firearms-licensees-ffls-2016

[displayfireworks1]

Here goes my appeal on the denial of the information at the first level. I am posting here as a future reference. It will be interesting to see how long it will take to receive the determination.
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https://tools.usps.com/go/TrackConfirmAction?tLabels=9505515186617065043128
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https://www.lexisnexis.com/legalnewsroom/cfs-file.ashx/__key/communityserver-blogs-components-weblogfiles/00-00-00-02-21/6281.appeal.jpg

[djsmurf]

Dave, Does the previous information you have on ATF license holders of the various states provide the license type (Manufacturer vs User)?

[displayfireworks1]

Yes Type 60, 54, 51, 53 , region. license sequence , name , premise location, mailing address if different from premise , state, county , expiration code . phone, etc. It was a scattered mess when I originally received it. Now that is organized I can easily count the number of ATF fireworks related license holders in each state and further in each county of the state. When you request public information you do not have to list a reason why you want the information. They may in fact be forbidden to ask you why you need it. When I filed this appeal, i never stated why I wanted the information, I only listed the reasons they should not have denied it at the first level. Since one of the things I do is promote enthusiast to become ATF licensed I want to evaluate my effectiveness from 2012 when I last received the information.
I am actually surprised all the 1.3 fireworks distributors in United States do not have this list. How can they verify a paper license if needed? I recently heard from new ATF applicants the Inspectors are taking pictures of documents in an effort to go paperless.

[ThorsThunder]

I for one am pulling for you, APPEAL APPROVED!

[ras1986]

I am actually surprised all the 1.3 fireworks distributors in United States do not have this list. How can they verify a paper license if needed? .
I hope a 1.3 distributor chimes in on this. My guess would be is the distributor is responsible for making sure the person who is buying the fireworks has a license. They may not have to verify ithat, just make sure they get a copy to protect their ass. These guys are in the business to make money, im sure most of them could care less if the license is still valid or not, as long as the copy they have is legitimate. Just my thoughts

[Rick_In_Tampa]

I am actually surprised all the 1.3 fireworks distributors in United States do not have this list. How can they verify a paper license if needed?

I would think that would be a huge pile of information that most distributors really didn't need. I have a Curio and Relics (C&R) firearms license that allows me to purchase military surplus firearms and have them shipped directly to my home. When I place an order for a firearm, I e-mail a signed copy of the C&R to the store I'm buying from. They keep it on file and I can keep buying from them until the license expires. I'm *assuming* fireworks distributors would work the same way. Instead of maintaining a list of 50K form 54 holders (or whatever the overall number is) it's more efficient to just maintain the 54's on the people who actually place orders.

As for verifying the license is good... Again I would *assume* the vendor can access a BATF system where they would type in the license number to verify it's actually good.

[displayfireworks1]

Table closed, no more bets, now we wait. The question is for how long we will wait. This post will be documented proof of how slow or fast the appeal process will be.
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http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=1968&stc=1

[displayfireworks1]

Here is the appeal decision. I will be making a video for the forums as a response to this. Until then here is the decision letter. It is teaching us something about the system and the license verification process.
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http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2136&stc=1
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http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2137&stc=1

[displayfireworks1]

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-Ho4UmY8bc
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http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2138&stc=1

[liame]

I hope this isn't taken the wrong way.... I am glad that the ATF wont release the names and/or addresses of licensee holders. First off i don't want to become a possible terrorists shopping store (recent events with fireworks made ied's, Boston, NYC). Second of all (No offense dave or anyone else here) i don't want you knowing where i live unless I want you to know. I do agree that requesting stats on counties and states would help you out , plus I would love to see one of my area.

[displayfireworks1]

That is all understandable, who wants anyone to know anything about them, right. LOL ..I have had applicants on the Type 54 tell me they do not want to write in their Social Security number. When you possess most forms of a professional license , you give up some degree of privacy. Funny back in the 80's I signed up for a Holiday Inn rewards program and they used your Social Security number, the woman at the desk said we use your SS number so you will always know your rewards number in case you forget your card. Now people feel different about it.