Shake Up at the Pyrotechnic Guild International

[displayfireworks1]

I can see some things shaking up at the PGI. One is apparently Robin is no longer running the business of membership. I received an email from a new person that my membership renewal was forwarded to them unopened for processing. The issue of what fireworks can be sold and used at the PGI conventions seems to be another topic. My guess is all of this is from recent activity with overloaded Class C sales and new officers in the top positions. I have a few options on the PGI. First I am curious if anyone else on the forums has any suggestions/opinions on the direction both past and present of the PGI?

[PyroMike79]

This is actually really sad for me. I have been debating joining the PGI for some time-especially since I live reasonably close to Mason City Iowa. But this makes it an easy decision for me-No Thanks. The reason I have held off in the past is that my contact with a few members has been less than positive. They made me feel as if I would not be welcome. The changes being made now seem to confirm that. I honestly don't know how they expect to grow their organization with these tactics. Maybe I am looking at it the wrong way-and yes I am sure the vast majority of the members are great folks-but it seems more like a business network for a group of insiders than it does a club for pyrotechnic enthusiasts. Maybe it always has been. Love to hear what members think.

[displayfireworks1]

I just received the latest PGI Bulletin. Finally there is something worthwhile to read in it. Of particular note is, starting at the next convention members will not be permitted to bring any of their own Consumer Fireworks. The only companies selling Consumer Fireworks at the 2017 convention will be.
.
Phantom Fireworks
TNT Fireworks
Fireworks Over America
Winco Aka Black Cat Fireworks
.
The article goes on to list all the reasons why this is the situation. As far as prices, the implication is prices will be very good. The article also notes none of these companies are PGI members. I know of at least one quality these companies have in common that most likely made them desirable for this change in PGI policy. Does anyone want to guess what it might be?

[RalphieJ]

I just received the latest PGI Bulletin. Finally there is something worthwhile to read in it. Of particular note is, starting at the next convention members will not be permitted to bring any of their own Consumer Fireworks. The only companies selling Consumer Fireworks at the 2017 convention will be.
.
Phantom Fireworks
TNT Fireworks
Fireworks Over America
Winco Aka Black Cat Fireworks
.
The article goes on to list all the reasons why this is the situation. As far as prices, the implication is prices will be very good. The article also notes none of these companies are PGI members. I know of at least one quality these companies have in common that most likely made them desirable for this change in PGI policy. Does anyone want to guess what it might be?

I'll hazard a guess: All four companies passed fat envelopes under the desk to the right people at PGI.

[countryboy7978]

Guys keep in mind that none of the importers (BJ Alan, TNT, FOA, or Winco) are vending at the PGI. The PGI is buying a container of their fireworks on consignment and hiring outsiders to handle the sales. Essentially PGI is just buying a turn-key fireworks stand and setting it up on the grounds. I'm sure this idea had already been floated around before this years convention since it was being discussed on Tuesday of the convention among several groups. TNT and Black Cat were mentioned. The reason for their selection is simple (minus the politics), these companies are known for selling CPSC compliant fireworks period. That's my .02.

[Chris23]

I'll hazard a guess: All four companies passed fat envelopes under the desk to the right people at PGI.

That my friend sounds like the most logical/unfiltered guess we will probably see!

Does this also ban the antique vendors?


Seriously I don't care if the prices are "very good" what is the point of driving half way across the US to buy/shoot product from 4 companies I prefer not to deal with (especially TNT!!!)

[Chris23]

The reason for their selection is simple (minus the politics), these companies are known for selling CPSC compliant fireworks period. That's my .02.

Ok compliance to the side, what made PGI awesome was the ability to cherry pick the fireworks you really wanted and usually didn't have access to due to the suppliers limited brands.

[countryboy7978]

Ok compliance to the side, what made PGI awesome was the ability to cherry pick the fireworks you really wanted and usually didn't have access to due to the suppliers limited brands.

Exactly. I can and do buy Phantom and FOA each year less than 30 minutes from home. I would not pay to attend a convention to buy product I can get at home, even at a slight discount. I'll play the coupon game as always, I'm close enough that when a good sale rolls around, I stop in and grab something.

[PyroJoeNEPA]

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned here yet is tha all the 1.4g pro products will no longer be sold. Forget about getting Dominator or SO76 slice cakes, single shot comets, etc.I could say a lot about what is going on, but won't tire my fingers out typing. I can say, though, that I know of at least 10 memberships that will not be renewed!

[ilovecrackle]

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned here yet is tha all the 1.4g pro products will no longer be sold. Forget about getting Dominator or SO76 slice cakes, single shot comets, etc.I could say a lot about what is going on, but won't tire my fingers out typing. I can say, though, that I know of at least 10 memberships that will not be renewed!

make that 11. :)

[displayfireworks1]

Don't give up on the PGI.
.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DBEvKMdSgc

[jknepp1954]

appreciate your thoughts. some of the points i agree - some i don't.
but like you said - your opinion - and we all have different opinions.
I for one not even renewing membership. Will i in the future? Time will tell...

[Chris23]

Dave thanks for the insight. I still won't be renewing as there will be no need to go seek out those brands that far away.

As to whether PGI will put a dent in the black market, doubt it.

One thing I agree 100% is the novice 2 time a year user having access to the overloaded stuff mostly 1.75 salutes. See down here in Miami and I'm sure other parts of the US, they call them "Onions". Instead of using launch tubes, they like putting them on the ground. Once lit it spins on the ground and the rest is history. It's bulls***!!

As for the spicy 1.4 cakes, they're awesome/less risky imo and funny enough I know one of those 4 vendors who sells some of those cakes to the "VIP" customers at one location. So that goes to show...

[displayfireworks1]

Joyce, I know you are a fireworks vendor at the PGI conventions. It is a shame the good vendors got caught up in this. I see on the PGI email chain people are upset. What I also do not see on the email chain is what a suggested remedy would have been other than this decision.
.
.
At Chris23, this has nothing to do with stopping overloaded fireworks in United States. This is about the Pyrotechnic Guild International being labeled a conduit to allow the sale and transfer of the illegal product. The guild has a fiduciary duty to protect the integrity and assets of the guild. One of my sources told me the Feds are ready to send someone to prison over this overloaded fireworks making its way across the country. The Guild is not responsible to stop illegal fireworks in United States. They are responsible to stop it from occurring at the conventions. The ATF and regulatory people attend these conventions and see all of this.

[Chris23]

At Chris23, this has nothing to do with stopping overloaded fireworks in United States. This is about the Pyrotechnic Guild International being labeled a conduit to allow the sale and transfer of the illegal product..

Oh I totally understand they gotta do what they gotta do to protect there assses. Just unfortunate they chose to go that route of only 4 suppliers.

[PyroMike79]

Dave I think you referred to this in your video but it seems like the big change has come in the nature of the overloads. Overloaded product has been around forever but some of the stuff out there today is just insane. Basically the same effect as a full on 1.3 cake but often without the quality and safety of construction. Those were-from what I gather-the products that caused the problem at PGI. As you put it, cakes that were not 550 or 600 grams but more like 2600 grams.

[countryboy7978]

I disagree about the quality and safety. They are the same thing you would get with a 1.3 wrapper on them. They have been around in that form for quite a long time. The only thing is that they were not widely distributed. That's what caused the issues, along with the mass launches just to protest the actions of the board. It was impressive and funny at the time however in retrospect that was not a smart move on anyone's part.

[countryboy7978]

Also nothing even came close to 2600 grams. Even some of the baddest product out was likely under 1000g but the nature of the composition is the issue. Some of the items mentioned in the bulletin were 36 shots of 3 gram inserts. Even the bigger ones only had 8 gram inserts. The worst offender was a rocket they said. While I agree that 500 grams is plenty of composition for a consumer item, I don't agree with the small amounts of report composition allowed or the fact that just because it's loud, it should be illegal.

[displayfireworks1]

I think you are correct in saying Basically the same effect as a full on 1.3 cake but often without the quality and safety of construction. . The frame of the product often can not handle the composition. I really do not know for sure, sometimes it looks like they take a Consumer Fireworks cake structure and just juice it up. In a few of my videos where you see something blow apart, often it is a overload. i just don't identify it as such. Then again I saw some really well made overloaded product On those rockets you mentioned, my guess if those are 1.3 UK rockets.
The issue here is not if these products are reasonable in some fashion. The issue is should be PGI allow these products to be sold and distributed at their conventions. The regulatory agencies identified the flow of the products. They see the PGI as allowing this to occur. Many guild members attending these conventions are new novice users of fireworks. If they get hurt why should the guild accept the risk.
Another issue is some people are not just satisfied with having a few of these for personal use. They want to buy them and sell them. They sell well, the big boys in the industry who are trying to play by the rules can not let this happen. It is really going to piss of the big boys if a legitimate organization like the PGI indirectly approves it.
My guess is , if you still want these overloaded products, they will still be for sale I'm sure. You just will not be able to buy them at the PGI convention. People are acting like the entire convention experience is ruined because they stopped the sale of overloaded fireworks. MY hope is some of the people running that organization leave right along with the overloaded fireworks.

[PyroMike79]

That is good information. I am not aware of the specifics of what was actually sold or shot at the convention that was not compliant. The point I was leading up to was that in my experience the really overloaded items have one thing in common-they either have no brand name or an off the wall brand name (I am sure we all know a few). So, for whatever it is worth, I would offer a different solution to the problem than banning all the C Vendors and the PGI handling sales themselves. Simply create a list of brands that can be sold at the convention-AFW, Glorious, Winda, Black Cat, World Class, Shogun, Brothers-etc etc. All the mainstream brands. The vendors agree to that and a simple and casual inspection can be done by the PGI BEFORE class C sales opens. Any items that do not comply can be removed and the PGI can decide if that vendor gets to stay. This way everybody knows exactly what they can bring, the vendors are not being hurt and the buyers will still get a wide range of products to choose from. It makes sense to me but I do not know how these decisions are made within the PGI.

[ilovecrackle]

Ok, I usually don't comment on these type of discussions but I'll bite on this one based on my opinion and what I saw there since i was there all week:

I spend a good deal of time, usually 75%-80% of my time at the PGI going back and forth through the C vending area, looking at product, visiting and talking to a lot of the vendors there that I know and getting to know the ones I do not know from the time they open till the time they close. I have done this for years. With that being said:

Yeah, there have always been OL's at PGI but it was a lot less and people seemed to be more "discreet" with them in the past (both seller and buyer). What i mean by that was there were a lot of people that would buy a case of something and put it in their vehicle and take it home. Yes, there were those out shooting such items on the C line but nothing like the grand scale of this year.

This year, I don't care what anyone say's, it was just way over the top and did people really think the PGI would continue to allow this to happen? If not the PGI it would only be a matter of time before the abc guys got involved.
As soon as the C line opened the first day, right out of the gate it was like WW3 out there. haha

A lot of vendors carrying more OL's and "larger" items than in the past plus people buying and shooting cases at a time at the C line, having their own mini version of the rocket rodeo out there with certain rockets....... It was just insane to say the least. If that wasn't bad enough, there were young children out there with all that going on.

The PGI coming through and shutting the offending vendors down should not be a surprise at all to anyone. Like someone else mentioned, the ATF has people attending the conventions every year and is aware of what was going on.

I don't think "most" people are as upset about such vendors getting shut down for the OL's or the OL's in general, I think the fact that ALL vendors are being punished because of the actions of some is probably more accurate. Plus the way the PGI handled certain parts of it like running up to someone at the C line that shot something that was louder than they thought it should be and yelling at them and dragging them away making them show them where they bought such and such item (yes, I actually saw this happening on more than one occasion) probably contributed to some of the negativity toward the PGI that is being said by people.

There were quite a few vendors there selling 100% complaint product that are now not allowed to vend at PGI (at least for 2017) now due to the actions of others.

Another thing to note is i think the safety team on the C line failed miserably this year. With us still talking about OL's, there is a big difference between a 25 shot tk going off and something that rattles your teeth from 200+ feet away. There were times I would be back where the safety guy was sitting at the entrance to the C line, feel something from back there go off, the safety go would turn around, look and just shake his head and just turn back around and do nothing. Neither did the few safety guys out in the field as well. Not to mention the countless pieces of the wooden firecracker structure that was blown off and nothing ever done or said about that.

Could the PGI have handled this differently? Probably but I'm not sure how. There was so much legally involved in this and I am not qualified to even start to offer any suggestions on that subject. lol
But Something needed to be done to protect the integrity of the PGI going forward. What's done is done so we shall see how things are going forward.

PGI 2018 will be interesting to see if other vendors outside of the "fabulous four" will be allowed back to the PGI

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Well isn't that lovely. I filled out my application and paid my $100 on Jan 1st!! A week later I got an e-mail from a lady who said she just took over the new membership / membership renewal role, but she wasn't given any of the information on how to do the job, or a computer to do it with. It's been almost 3 weeks now and I'm still waiting for word on my membership. Not a very good start.

I've had hotel reservations for the August convention made since the last convention ended last year. I'm starting to rethink the whole affair...

[jknepp1954]

RICK - and others who may have paid dues - they are NOT refundable.

[NWPA]

I have debated with myself for quite awhile about whether I should join or not Just for the vintage bricks.If the vintage fireworks are gone, then its no. I can and do buy run of the mill stuff in numerous places.Why drive all the way out there for that.

[PyroJoeNEPA]

From what I have read & heard only the Class C sales area is affected. The vintage area, and chemical and supplies areas will remain the same. Manufacturing also is unaffected.
I, however, won't be going or renewing my membership.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

RICK - and others who may have paid dues - they are NOT refundable.

Roger that. But I don't need to throw good money after bad by paying for plane tickets a rental car and a hotel room for a week. That's the part I'm considering canceling. I was really looking forward to doing the Display Operator Certification Course. Seems to be the only training of it's kind available.

[Bgreen]

Wait is this real????

[Rick_In_Tampa]

Wait is this real????

Well, I signed up with PGI on Jan 1st. They took my money on Jan 1st. Besides 1 e-mail I received saying there's a new person in charge of memberships and she doesn't know a thing about the job, I still haven't received a follow up e-mail or any membership documentation from them.

So yes. I'd say it's real.