aluminum powder spontaneously combusted

[Joelab535]

i was making aluminum powder from shavings i got after milling aluminum at the machine shop and when i opened my ball mill it flared up i set the container down and the shock caused it to flare up again. any tips on how i can avoid this from happening again?

[deepdixie1979]

When milled to a very fine state, Aluminum can become pyrophoric, meaning it can ignite when it comes into contact with atmospheric oxygen. I've heard of some using a surfactant such as a small percentage of either Stearin or Ivory Soap in a mill to prevent this. Not sure why anyone would feel the need to endanger themselves by making their own aluminum powder when commercially produced powder can be purchased so cheaply.

[ilovecrackle]

any tips on how i can avoid this from happening again?

Yeah, don't try making it again. :p
Oh, you were looking for a serious answer.... sorry i got nothing serious for you. lol :D :cool:
Sorry, couldn't help myself. Just funning with you! :)

[Big Mark]

How long did you let it mill for before checking you progress. I was told to open the ball mill about every hour our two. To cut down on the chance's of this happing.

[samsons_explosives]

I would let the mill sit for a while before opening, this could solve your problem, never tried it myself but have heard it does work. Also avoid static!

[Fire Art]

Not sure how much aluminum powder you need but we sell it in 110 lb drums. I see you are in Michigan, I could arrange for a pick up there if needed.

[displayfireworks1]

Ok, we not going to do some rhyme games or post funny pictures with words. We going to do fun advanced pyro stuff.
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Here it goes.
Using the Fire Art post above. Fire Art sells aluminum powder at 110 lbs. per drum. Using the standard flash mixture of 70/30 ppw. How many pound of Potassium Perchlorate would you need to mix to the 110 lbs of powder of aluminum to make single flash mixture that uses all of that aluminum in a single mixture? What would the final weight be? I do not know the answer but I am hoping some of our members are advanced in math and can tell us and hopefully show their work. If we get this answer, I have a follow up question?

[PyroJoeNEPA]

Easy calculation but I don't know if I can type the algebraic formula for it properly but here goes:
70/30=x/110
30x=7700
x=7700/30
x=256.666
so, you would need 256.66 lbs of Perc for the Al.
Adding 256.6lbs of Perc to 110 lbs of Al you get 366.6lbs total weight===if you and the entire 3 miles around you manage to survive!!!!
Next question?????

[displayfireworks1]

Great, thanks PyroJoe for solving the problem so quickly. It looks like we now have 366.00 total pound of flash composition. We going back to 1984 on this one. I posted some documents I had from that time period. When M-80 kits were still around. Using the 1984 prices, This is the total cost of our project thus far.
110 lbs of Aluminum @ $8.50 per pound = $935.00
256.6 ibs of Aluminum @ $3.00 per pound = $796.8
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Total cost thus for 366.00 pound of 70/30 flash is $1731.80
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Ok remember it is 1984 and we are going to turn that into some M-80's . We are going to use the Silver cartridges 5/8 ID x1/16 wall x 1.3/4 long. See document below.
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What is the amount of composition by weight that does into each cartridge? How many M-80's can we get from the 366 pound of flash? Once we establish the answers for these two question we can move to the next question.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gphdiYcL2g
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http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=1798&stc=1
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http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=1799&stc=1
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http://www.pyrotalk.com/bulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=1800&stc=1

[Big Mark]

I've not got it calculated yet but dam I wish we still had those price's to day.

[PyroJoeNEPA]

OK--some more math:
1 oz = 28.35 grams
1 lb (16 oz) = 453.6 grams
366 lbs = 166,017.6 grams
Now---there are two versions of what the actual weight of composition was in the original M80's: one document I read stated 3 grams while another version stated [the original miitary spec] was 5.2 grams.
The length of the tube you mention is 1.75" compared to the standard 1.5" made today...
Not o big difference for the purpose of calculations.
If you were to use 3 grams of composition it would yield 55,339 units.
If you were to use 5 grams of composition it would yield 33,205 units.

[PyroJoeNEPA]

I've not got it calculated yet but dam I wish we still had those price's to day.

Lancaster & Weingarts Books for $21.95 each------drool!!!!

[Big Mark]

Thank you pyrojoe That has now made it to the top of my to get list.

[displayfireworks1]

PyrojoeNEPA, awesome work with the math, but we are not done yet. Remember this is 1984 and the kits were still sold. All of our prices are in 1984 for this retro experiment. I think it is reasonable we use 3 Grams of flash composition for our salutes considering the size of the silver cartridges. We now know that 110 lbs of pyro grade aluminum will make 55,339 M-80's.
Here is where we are at with cost of chemicals thus far in 1984.
$1731.80
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Now we need to purchase the cartridges and fuse.
If I am doing the math correctly on the fuse, I think it reasonable we use 2 inches of fuse on each one. Believe or not we are going to need to purchase that 10,000 ' spool they have advertised at $450.00
Ok here goes the math , I may need double checked.
55,339 total M-80's x 2 inch fuse per unit, equals 110,678 total inches divided by 12 inches per foot equals 9223.16 feet. Told you we need that big spool. LOL
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$1731.80 chemicals
$450.00 fuse
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Ok let purchase the silver cartridges and end caps, anyone want to take a shot at the price and math? As we approach the end of this retro endeavour, we need to agree on what an M-80 sold for in 1984 on the Black Market.

[PyroJoeNEPA]

Correct on the fuse calculation.
On a side note the chemite was added to keep the perc from clumping. These days there are several grades of perc sold with "anti-caking" agent [usually cab-o-sil] already added.

[PyroJoeNEPA]

Silver tubes 55,339 pcs---55,000 [55 lots of 1000 @ $27.00] $1485.00
500 pcs [250 for $9.00] $ 18.00
$1503.00 for 55,500 tubes
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End Caps 55,339 tubes x 2 -110,678 pcs divided by 200 [200 pcs/3.00] =554 lots
554 lots @$3.00 = $1660.00 for end caps
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** Also need to factor in cost of carpenters [white] glue or animal hide glue to seal end caps & fuse hole. ** This is really an unknown both in required quantity & cost. I would "guestimate" 10 gallons of glue--spec in maybe $200-$300 "extra materials cost".
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So we are looking at:
Chemicals $1732.00
Fuse 450.00
Tubes 1503.00
End Caps 1660.00
Glue 300.00
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Total $ 5645.00 [rounded off]

Unit cost $5645.00 /55339 pieces = $ .102 a little over 10 cents each.....
Price does not include any labor to manufacture cost.

[displayfireworks1]

PyroJoe thanks for the math on this. Ok we are up to $5645.00 on this 1984 project for 55,500 M-80's. What do you thing the black market price for these were in 1984? I'm thinking 75 cents each.

[PyroJoeNEPA]

Well, I will have to pass on the last question since I never bought any black market back in the '80's. I'm sure some of the other readers on here can jump in with some input on your question.
PS--it was an interesting and fun "research project". ..Two Thumbs Up!

[displayfireworks1]

But wait there’s more.
We still have to count labor cost. Since we have so many M-80’s we need to sell them at wholesale. Assuming the end customer pays 75 cents each in 1984, we will charge our distributors 50 cents each. We are also going to need labor, I am figuring 5 men working for a total of 20 days kicking out 2,766 M-80 per day. Each man has to make around 500 per day.
What shall we pay these 5 men? The average yearly wage in 1984 was 16,135.07 per year or around $7.75 per hour. I’m going to need these guys to work hard and keep their mouth shut, I think we will pay them $8.00 per hour. I need 5 men for 20 days at $8.00 per hour. What am I doing? I’m cutting fuse and loaded boxes. LOL
Our 55,339 M-80’s at 50 cents each brings in $27, 669.
The labor cost of 5 men for 20 days @ $8.00 per hour, 8 hour days, is $1280.00 per man or $6400.00 in total labor for the 10 day period.
Ok, let’s see what we have thus far in 1984
Total Gross $27,669.00 This is 55,339 M-80’s at 50 cents each
Chemicals $1732.00 This is the aluminum, and potassium perchlorate
Fuse $450.00
Tubes 1503.00 Silver in color
End Caps 1660.00 (now you see why they used that pink stuff to save money)
Glue $300.00 (again we see why they used the pink stuff to save money)
Labor $6400.00 This is 5 men working at $8.00 per hour x 20 days.
Misc $300.00 boxes , tools etc. trip to McDonalds on the 10th day to buy lunch for the guys.
The grand total for profit from 110 lbs. of pyro grade aluminum in 1984 is $15,324.00 for me, once my help is paid and cost of materials is covered.
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Considering the average yearly wage was $16,135.07 in 1984, this is great money for a 10 day period. And remember, there are no taxes that need paid.
I believe I did the math correctly, but if someone notices an error please correct.

[rocky99]

Only thing you left out is the cost of the lawyer to bail (or at least try) your sorry ass out of jail!!!

[drtoivowillmann]

Dear Friend:

I have professionally dealt with milling of Aluminum into dark powder.
I see two main dangers, which might lead to spontaneous combustion:
- Impurity of prime matter. Aluminum hat to be about 99,5% pure (I am talking about alloy, not about waste particles of foreign material).
Aluminum foil which covers yoghurt or chocolate or old window-frames are best.
Aluminum in alloys (Coca-Cola-cans, for example) contain smallammounts of Silicon, Magnesium ore something else, to harden the soft metal of Aluminum. These alloys are extremly dangerous to mill and get fire easily. Cause: the microscopic protecting oxide-cover or skin of Aluminum gets microscopic "holes", whe the strange chemical elements are within.
- Too fast oxidation by atmospheric oxigen. When milled, in the beginning, there is no protecting oxide-cover or skin at all on the aluminum-articles. Exposed to air it is rapidly formed, but in a very exothermic chemical reaction, which might lead to spontaneous combustion.
To avoid is there are 2 alternatives: * small flow od a little of air in the mill during milling: little by little the new oxide-skin is formed.
* Moisten the material with about 2 to 5 % of Diesel. If after milling your dark Aluminum is exposed to air, Diesel slows down the skin-forming process, so the danger is less. Afterwards you may let the volatile part of Diesel evaporate.

Yours truly: Toivo

[PyroJoeNEPA]

Toivo--that is a very good explanation of the chemical reaction with the aluminum. Thank you for posting it! I have heard also of people adding Linseed Oil to the aluminum in place of the diesel.
I have never tried to attempt to mill aluminum--it is not that expensive to buy, and easy to obtain here in the USA & it seems like a lot of time and effort to produce a small amount of aluminum.
Are pyro chemicals available in Germany? Are there government regulations on what type of chemicals and supplies you can purchase?

[drtoivowillmann]

Toivo--that is a very good explanation of the chemical reaction with the aluminum. Thank you for posting it! I have heard also of people adding Linseed Oil to the aluminum in place of the diesel.
I have never tried to attempt to mill aluminum--it is not that expensive to buy, and easy to obtain here in the USA & it seems like a lot of time and effort to produce a small amount of aluminum.
Are pyro chemicals available in Germany? Are there government regulations on what type of chemicals and supplies you can purchase?

* Linseed oil or used engine oil from cars also work, but they are not volatile at all and remain completely in the produced dark aluminum.
* In the EU (European Community) selling of pyro-chemicals to not professionals has almost been blocked by Law.

Yours truly: Toivo

[chris v]

Current price for these chems are 3808.15 just chem not shipping

[Kenny East]

I've heard of it lighting up if its not opened to breath every few hours... As new clean metal is exposed it begins to oxidize... In a closed mill drum it uses up all the available oxygen... You open it and get a fire as air hits it... Oxidation creates heat, let in some air every once in a while, or treat it with a coating to prevent oxidation... I've never milled aluminum beyond 30-40 mesh size... Too long a process... Easier to buy fine aluminium