1.4 pro vs consumer

[tfb5701]

Sorry if this is already been talked about but I try to read through most of the threads on here and I didn't see this specifically discussed. What does having something classified as 1.4 Pro(AP) do for the company or the user verses 1.4 consumer product? Is it just the fact that 1.4 Pro stuff has Ematch ports? Or does having something classified as AP/1.4 Pro officially or unofficially allow for loading weights beyond the 1.4 consumer limits(60g/200g/500g/130mg)?

I'm just trying to figure out why companies would spend the money and limit their customer base if 1.4 pro had to qualify under the same consumer limits as consumer shells/cakes.

[PyroJoeNEPA]

That is a good question. 1.4 PRO is designed for use by--as the name implies--the professional pyro.
One shot comets, meteors, flame pots, gerbs, fountains, slice cakes, etc. are made with the show or stage application in mind where something requires a level of accuracy & repeatable consistency not found in consumer "C" products. All the football games, wrestling matches, Vegas shows, etc. using pyro are all AP.
That being said, the upside to them is that if you [a hobbyist
can supply proof of competency [a PGI Certification or equivalent] you are able to purchase these products and have a myriad of resources available to you to "beef up" a class C backyard show.
It isn't about the composition weights or effects, but the accuracy as I stated earlier. Imagine having to cut apart Red Razzle cakes to get a couple red comets for "The rockets red glare"--in the Star Spangled Banner compared to dropping a couple red comets in a rack...or trying to script a home show pyromusical using tubes from cakes. Hope this answers your question.

[PGH_Pyro]

well, i'd add that the compositions, inside are more finely dialed-in ... the colors are 'better' / brighter / more keen looking ... the effects more crisp/succinct and 1.3-ish in performance (minus the flash powder)

[tfb5701]

Thanks for the replies. I kind of get what you are staying but I still am a little confused. If 1.4 Pro stuff could technically qualify as 1.4 consumer stuff, why couldn't they just have a line of 1.4 consumer items that had better construction, better colors, higher accuracy and just call the line "professional" or something else while it's still being a 1.4 consumer product? The pros would still buy it and the company could sell it to a wider range of people. I guess I just don't get the purpose for a separate category with a higher cost/sales paperwork burden to not only sellers but buyers if the only real difference is higher quality and consistency.

It's not a big deal for me since I have my display operator permit but I guess I just don't quite get the purpose for a separate category with further restrictions when they could just sell it as 1.4 consumer product.

[Dmkaz]

Here's a blurb right from the ATF (https://www.atf.gov/explosives/fireworks) website:

Federal explosives regulations generally exempt the importation, distribu*tion, and storage of "articles pyrotechnic," as defined under the regulation at 27 CFR 555.11. This section defines "articles pyrotechnic" as "Pyrotechnic devices for professional use similar to consumer fireworks in chemical composition and construction but not intended for consumer use. Such articles meeting the weight limits for consumer fireworks, but not labeled as such, and classified by U.S. Department of Transportation regula*tions in 49 CFR 172.101 as UN0431 or UN0432."

As others mentioned, they are normally designed for specific effects for stage shows, etc. As above noted, they *do* meet the weight requirements for 1.4G, but aren't labeled 1.4.

[displayfireworks1]

Here is a video I did back in 2011. If I did this video again I would add much more to it. I talk about Articles of Pyrotechnics. I really do not know if a Consumer Fireworks product calling itself a "Pro" product necessarily is a Article of Pyrotechnic". A true "Article of Pyrotechnic" product is forbidden to be on the shelf for sale. A "Pro" product can be on the shelf. I can call a Sparkler a "Pro Sparkler" if I want. While a Article of Pyrotechnic product may not be displayed for sale to regular consumers, some distributors place signs on the shelf in an empty slot to let you know they sell Articles of Pyrotechnics. Sort of like they do with certain cold medications at pharmacies.Then it is up to the seller what standards he wants to set to sell to qualified individuals.
.
Here is the video from 2011.
.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ik-6sfnd-20

[PyroManiacs]

Actually Dave, I think an update version of this would be a great idea. If you ever get time to do so of course.

[PGH_Pyro]

needless to say, you also PAY more for articles/1.4S product ... you're paying for the better construction and T.L.C. given to the stuff, during production ... and I am personally fine with paying a little more for better performance and better colors/effects ...

[ras1986]

I think about it this way. Ap stuff just burns the max limits much faster. Like a fan slice is probably 500 grams but fires in .5 seconds. But if 20 of these came together in a big box fused together it would be a 1.3 finale cake. I bet you that a 52 mm dominator single maxes out at 200 grams.. In my opinion article of pyrotechnics are just condensed consumer fireworks. Same limits

[displayfireworks1]

When you attempt to question people associated with either making Pro products or Articles of Pyrotechnics they tell you all sort of standard untruths. LOL It gets confusing because some of what they say is true and some of what they say is untrue. My assessment is the strategy is to take a strictly regulated product and bring it into a limited restricted market so it can be sold easier, with less competition and better performance. Sometimes this stuff is just like Consumer Fireworks and sometimes it is not. There are more lies per square inch of fireworks than you can imagine. Years back I bought a case of salutes that had Crackling Effect on the outside of the box. I was trying to return it because I thought they gave me the wrong product. It was salutes just called something different. Another time I bought 1.3 salutes that said it was salutes. Every 12th shell had "RED" written on it. When I shot them, there was not a red one in entire case, it said red but it was salute also. The ATF Inspectors know all of this, I don't think they care. The ATF higher ups probably think everything is running smooth according to regulations.
I will tell you to look at the performance of the fireworks product rather than how it labeled.

[Dmkaz]

To touch on this a bit more, I believe AP product doesn't also have to follow the same guidelines for construction. For example, with 1.4 product, anything over 200g (I believe) up to 500g has guidelines on tube spacing and construction. Obviously the AP 'fan slices' don't follow this.

It seems the AP class was created for professionals for close proximity/stage shows without the need for storage magazines. The benefit that seems to be creeping up is that normal 'advanced' consumers can also get their hands on the product.

I do also agree what Dave said above. Companies are getting creative shipping certain items into the US to get around their product being classified as 1.1G. If the hammer ever drops on that, I fear for the cost/availability of salutes.

[countryboy7978]

To touch on this a bit more, I believe AP product doesn't also have to follow the same guidelines for construction. For example, with 1.4 product, anything over 200g (I believe) up to 500g has guidelines on tube spacing and construction. Obviously the AP 'fan slices' don't follow this.

It seems the AP class was created for professionals for close proximity/stage shows without the need for storage magazines. The benefit that seems to be creeping up is that normal 'advanced' consumers can also get their hands on the product.

I do also agree what Dave said above. Companies are getting creative shipping certain items into the US to get around their product being classified as 1.1G. If the hammer ever drops on that, I fear for the cost/availability of salutes.

The creative names with noise shells is more to muddy the waters of storage requirements (type I vs Type IV) for bulk salutes than to get over on import restrictions.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

When you attempt to question people associated with either making Pro products or Articles of Pyrotechnics they tell you all sort of standard untruths. LOL It gets confusing because some of what they say is true and some of what they say is untrue. My assessment is the strategy is to take a strictly regulated product and bring it into a limited restricted market so it can be sold easier, with less competition and better performance. Sometimes this stuff is just like Consumer Fireworks and sometimes it is not. There are more lies per square inch of fireworks than you can imagine. Years back I bought a case of salutes that had Crackling Effect on the outside of the box. I was trying to return it because I thought they gave me the wrong product. It was salutes just called something different. Another time I bought 1.3 salutes that said it was salutes. Every 12th shell had "RED" written on it. When I shot them, there was not a red one in entire case, it said red but it was salute also. The ATF Inspectors know all of this, I don't think they care. The ATF higher ups probably think everything is running smooth according to regulations.
I will tell you to look at the performance of the fireworks product rather than how it labeled.

Ok... Stupid question time. Do any of your sponsors sell 1.4 pro products? If so, can you define the criteria they're looking for (if you know) before they will sell someone a "pro" product?

[Dmkaz]

Ok... Stupid question time. Do any of your sponsors sell 1.4 pro products? If so, can you define the criteria they're looking for (if you know) before they will sell someone a "pro" product?

I know that Lynch Imports has some Pro product. Namely fan slices and mines. Essentially what they're looking for is an ATF license (obviously), or club membership (PGI, Cracker Jacks, etc) with a training class, etc. You're definitely going to need documentation that you attended a shooter safety class or letter from a pyro company saying you trained under them, etc.

[Rick_In_Tampa]

I know that Lynch Imports has some Pro product. Namely fan slices and mines. Essentially what they're looking for is an ATF license (obviously), or club membership (PGI, Cracker Jacks, etc) with a training class, etc. You're definitely going to need documentation that you attended a shooter safety class or letter from a pyro company saying you trained under them, etc.

Great info! Thanks!!

[Justice Pyro]

The ATF Inspectors know all of this, I don't think they care. The ATF higher ups probably think everything is running smooth according to regulations.
I will tell you to look at the performance of the fireworks product rather than how it labeled.

Stuff like this is why I think showing labels or talking about overloads openly is okay. Don't they write red on it for certain import laws bc if its ALL salutes they have to store it differently or is that why they call it sum weird ass name instead of salute? I think you mentioned it in one video like 65 shots of salute and 1 dragon egg.