comrecnce or non com. ?

[hatsgoods]

i might have a display to do. but it will be with a permit on public land in a park and it will be all non profit but even though its all non profit, will it be considered comrence?

[PyroManiacs]

Non-profit = Not in commerce.

Of course there will be some ways that "they" will try to say no matter what you do, it is in commerce.

[CTPYRO]

Your doing it because you enjoy fireworks.... not to fatten your bank account...... non-commerce

[displayfireworks1]

Remember if you are a poor business man and can not make a profit does not mean you are not in commerce. You are in business but just do not know how to make a profit. Many business owner run in the red at times. I would suggest you get the money before the display and provide a receipt back to them documenting you spent it all on fireworks for them. You want to provide this receipt before the display. Make it clear before the display to the help, this display is strictly a donation of time and fireworks.
Lets enjoy the "Not in Commerce" video again shall we.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrddqgcjagQ
Its a shame whoever made this video may be hindered to communicate with me because of peer pressure. It is a great message in the video. The message is for people that make fireworks. It does also include us. We are exempt from many rules but not all because we are not in commerce. I would love to post the lyrics to this song if someone has them.

[pyrotech5]

You should call your ATF agent and ask him. He will refer you to DOT. DOT will tell you are in commerce based on what I am reading. Do not rely on website advice when dealing with the ATF and DOT.

Non profit does not equal not in commerce.

A user permit allows you to purchase class b fireworks for your own personal use. Once you purchase fireworks for someone else and they derive a benefit from them you are in commerce.

To many people with little or no experience dealing with DOT have jumped in here and are giving out incorrect assumptions. Trust me you can not afford the fines. When in doubt call your agent or DOT.

[displayfireworks1]

I guess everyone has an opinion on this. A large number of hobbyist operate under the Not in Commerce. Here we go back to the tolerance for risk spectrum.
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http://allennance.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Taking-Risk.jpg

[wizard7611]

Lol Dave, you can be quite a character here on the forums. For instance, the video titled "Not In Commerce".

[pyrotech5]

Cute cartoon but it does not change lack of understanding concerning DOT regulations I am reading over and over again on this website. Isn't better to direct someone to the ATF or DOT to answer these type questions instead pretending to be an internet expert on matters you know little about?

[displayfireworks1]

I would suggest to show me one case on the books where a true not in commerce fireworks enthusiast was issued a violation. I wish I had permission to post a recent article from the PGI where Ned Gorski and his son were in an automobile accident and the result was many fireworks ended up all over the road. He was transporting fireworks not in commerce to or from an event. To the best of my knowledge he was not charged with a transportation violation for the fireworks, the pictures of the accident showed the truck was not placarded.
http://static.news-gazette.com/sites/all/files/imagecache/lightbox_800_600_scale/images/2014/10/14/20141014-194551-pic-100001269.jpg
http://static.news-gazette.com/sites/all/files/imagecache/lightbox_800_600_scale/images/2014/10/14/20141014-194551-pic-281169465.jpg
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I would also suggest not to call the DOT about anything. What are you going to ask them? To provide you information for something that does not exist? If you are not in commerce, what can they do? Certify you do not exist?

[RetroPyro101]

You told him Dave lol

[displayfireworks1]

If you are a member of the Pyrotechnic Guild International aka PGI and sometimes wonder why you are paying dues, please consider they are an organization that helps keep the pyrotechnic enthusiast in the game so to speak. They advocate for us and have lawyers and experts that help research some the data we reference in pursuit of our hobby. This post is an example.
First the PGI link below references the transportation of non-commerce fireworks. Note the reference material has been reviewed for accuracy by a law firm retained by the PGI .
http://www.pgi.org/convention/transport.php
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Note
1) If you are NOT in commerce, DOT rules and regulations do NOT apply to you. You need not have a CDL, placards, log book, MCS 90 insurance certificate and $5 million in coverage, hazardous materials registration, etc.
.

Also included in this link is a reference for those "In Commerce". I turned this PowerPoint presentation into a video that changes every 10 seconds. If you have thoughts about entering the fireworks business in commerce, you need to watch this.
Video is unlisted and can viewed here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRi-IIh0heg&feature=youtu.be
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Some people trying to entry level into the display fireworks business think they can find a work around and do displays for profit and not follow these rules. If you do one for profit display, these rules apply to you. I may do a video about it in the future.

[CTPYRO]

Cute cartoon but it does not change lack of understanding concerning DOT regulations I am reading over and over again on this website. Isn't better to direct someone to the ATF or DOT to answer these type questions instead pretending to be an internet expert on matters you know little about?

When I had my meeting with the ATF I asked this same question he said transportation does not fall under the ATF... that is the DOT. Please do tell us if your non profit that your still in commerce? Why would you placard.. get insurance.. ect if your not making a dime off of it???

[displayfireworks1]

Now that we are discussing this issue, it seems to be popping everywhere for me. I just referred someone to Kellner Fireworks website for a contingency on obtaining an ATF Type 54. I read some of what else its says beside the contingency. And I have to give Kellner credit for addressing this. In the form he provides he specifically outlines the pick up process. He addresses the issue if you are a commercial customer or non-commercial customer. I will copy and paste the section here and you may also follow the link to his website and the actual form.
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Your Vehicle - Fireworks that are sold to customers for personal, non-commercial use and transported by such persons in their personal vehicles are not subject to any hazardous
materials transportation regulations. Fireworks sold to customers for commercial use ARE subject to various regulations. Please contact us for more information
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Here is the link, please scroll down to the second page of the form.
http://www.kellfire.com/pdf/2015_displayfireworks_orderinginfo.pdf
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I have to give Kellner Fireworks credit for actually stating this in writing on their website. Not many 1.3 distributors will write this. I purchased fireworks from some distributors at the time of pick up will offer placards if you need them. Because the reality is they do not really know if you are in business or not. I appreciate the opinion from Pyrotech5, I suspect he knows more of what types of things go on more than others may know. I actually know some of what he may be referencing. Some people try to operate a small display company under the guise of a "Not in Commerce". You can imagine a few ways to do that, by using cash, calling payments donations etc.
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A confidential source in the regulatory end of the business told me a story I never forgot. Although he probably forgot he told me. LOL. For years a man operated a small display company business without following the "In Commerce" regulations. how did he do this? He would use two separate vehicles to transport to the shoot site. He would drive the truck to the shoot site with just the racks. Once he arrived at the shoot site the wife would delivery the product to the shoot site in the station wagon. This way you never had the two together in the same vehicle. I believe you get the picture of how you can deceptively take advantage of the "Not in commerce" rules for transportation.

[mbixler]

It is not that easy saying non profit = non commerce. "I would suggest you get the money before the display and provide a receipt back to them documenting you spent it all on fireworks" right there puts you in commerce. You are receiving compensation for a show. Whether you spend it all on the shells or not you are being provided compensation. Look at PGI. I got compensated to perform a display there...even though I spent $6000 over the budget...I still had to placard and follow all appropriate DOT rules and regs. If you buy all the product out of your own pocket and shoot it out of the goodness of your heart...you are not in commerce. If however after the show the sponsor gives you a bottle of water...puts you right back into it. Sounds stupid but thats the rule.

[PyroManiacs]

Lesson we have all learned??? Do not accept even a bottle of water.

Thank You Mr. Mike ....That would probably be the most clear explanation that everyone will understand. :p

Long time no see on the forums with your three posts, lol. How you been?

[pyrotech5]

CTPYRO you should note that I said in an earlier response to call your ATF agent and he will direct you to DOT. It seems from the limited reading I have done here that half of the people do not even understand the difference between an ATF license and an ATF user permit. ATF licenses are only issued to dealer, wholesalers, manufactuers, and importers. Since many people more knowledgeable on DOT regulations have a hard time understanding all the regulations your best option for a good answer would come directly from DOT. I suggested that hatsgood contact DOT and never mentioned placards or insurance. Thanks you mbixler fro relaying your experiences to a posting on the internet full of bad advice. Mr. Kellner is a knowledgeable man however I would not advise anyone to drive hazmat in to New York City without the proper escort unless you have deep pockets.

[PyroManiacs]

Did that with a company.... had a firetruck escort... pretty interesting.

[CTPYRO]

If you drive in NYC w fireworks you need your head examined

[mguerra]

Again, DO NOT call the ATF. It is not their business nor purview to determine if you are in commerce. They have nothing to do with that. If you are not in commerce, there will be no evidence whatsoever that you are. If you ARE in commerce, you know you are, and you must comply with all legal requirements.

[Fire Art]

Mr Bixler so far has summed it up most accurately. While many of us may think we are not operating "in commerce" because it is a personal display not a commercial one, we may do something along the way that automatically puts us "in commerce" unknowingly. Accepting any sort of payment or compensation automatically puts you in commerce, "they threw me a couple bucks for gas" puts you in commerce, they paid for the shells and I just shot them puts you in commerce, a bottle of water or a hot dog puts you in commerce, "they owe me one" puts you in commerce. If you are personally funding a show and completely assuming all expenses for it (including permits, transport costs, food, backrubs, etc) then you may not be in commerce. Always double check with the DOT. Your ATF rep does not have jurisdiction over the transport of your product, they will not always give you the correct advice. I have seen letters from their office telling people they were in commerce when they were not and vice versa. DOT has jurisdiction in these matters and decides to make the call when issues arise transporting, they are the ones you want to ask. Get your answers in writing, god bless email.

Sorry if it sounds like a rant, it is meant to encourage my fellow enthusiasts to proceed with caution and avoid any additional headaches from alphabet soup.

[PyroJoeNEPA]

If you are personally funding a show and completely assuming all expenses for it (including permits, transport costs, food, backrubs, etc) then you may not be in commerce.
Where are you shooting at that you get backrubs, Al??? I want to hang out with you more often! LOl!!!

[PyroJoeNEPA]

Dave, In regards to your post #9 concerning Ned Gorsky's accident returning home from the PGI: He was not transporting any assembled fireworks. He did have all of his fireworks building chemicals, tools,and supplies with him & everything was scattered over the highway when the truck and camper flipped. There were no citations issued--his grandson was driving at the time--the accident was not their fault--another car pulled out in front of them from the side of the road causing the accident.
I am a member of his site fireworking dot com which is dedicated to pyro's that make/build their own shells, rockets, etc. He went into a lot of detail after the accident about the particulars of what had happened. I remember one thing he said was the police were more concerned with the ammo cans strewn around & what was in them--they had tooling in them-not ammo or chemicals, or anything explosive. Fortunately they were not seriously injured!

[hatsgoods]

just saying, what if my cusin was to give me say like 300 bucks for a show, and then i add another 150 bucks making a total of 450 bucks that would be non com cuase i lost money right? or am im still wrong?

[PyroManiacs]

Again.....



Accepting any sort of payment or compensation automatically puts you in commerce, "they threw me a couple bucks for gas" puts you in commerce, they paid for the shells and I just shot them puts you in commerce, a bottle of water or a hot dog puts you in commerce, "they owe me one" puts you in commerce. If you are personally funding a show and completely assuming all expenses for it (including permits, transport costs, food, backrubs, etc) then you may not be in commerce.

[Northern Sky]

Come on people. If you and some friends pool funds and put on a backyard display you are not "in commerce". It is similar to a group buy and group shoot, relative, friend, neighbor, what ever. Legally, permits are still needed though.

If someone is giving you money to do a display at their business or function you are "in commerce".

1.3 adds additional exposure no matter where the event is held.


Just my 2 cents.

[displayfireworks1]

I did not think I could type all I wanted to say so I made this unlisted video. The debate continues.
.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rdc1Ppx42GE

[pyrotech5]

hatsgood have you looked in to getting insurance to cover the display or spoken with the local AHJ about a permit? NJ is not in the habit of issuing permits to just any one who wants to shoot off class b fireworks in the backyard. I can see where you might be under the impression that getting an ATF user permit allows you to use class b fireworks in a backyard display after reading the information on this website.

[pyrotech5]

displayfireworks1 perhaps you should consider putting more emphasis on the safe and legal use of class b fireworks rather than the ease of getting an ATF users permit. Suggesting to young people who may be somewhat inexperienced in the use of class c fireworks to run out and get an ATF users permit is a little shortsighted not mention potentially dangerous. I have seen many people who shoot 2 or 3 displays a year for xyz fireworks company feel they are qualified experts on the safe use of class b fireworks. You are advocating to people who may not even have the benefit of xyz's shooter training to get and use class b fireworks in the backyard. That puts friends and family at risk. 30 years in the business has taught me that not everyone should be able to obtain and use class b fireworks. The ATF should really have in place a requirement for those wishing to obtain a users permit to have worked on a minimum number of professional shows before being allowed to purchase class b. The safe and legal use of fireworks is far more important than filling the country with user permits. Fortunately I do not see this hatsgood person making it past the permitting process or meeting the insurance requirements in the state of NJ.

[displayfireworks1]

I found the word I am looking for referencing the name and profession similarity.
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http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/sites/default/files/styles/insert_medium/public/images/2469/aptronyms.png?itok=M2yF9sc2
.

http://www.wordsmith.org/words/aptronym.wav
.
Examples: Dan Druff for a barber, Felicity Foote for a dance teacher, and James Bugg for an exterminator -- all real monikers. More famously, we have William Wordsworth, the poet; Margaret Court, the tennis champion; Sally Ride, the astronaut; Larry Speakes, the White House spokesperson, Jim Kiick, the football star.
.
.
We are getting side track on the thread, as far as safety with fireworks I believe I am addressing some of that in my videos. The real job of education belongs to the professional organizations out there. The American Pyrotechnic Association , the National Fireworks Association to name two. at least one of them has a new video about education and professional fireworks. I will be happy to play any true education video on my website or YouTube channel from an official organization.
I keep telling anyone that will listen the rate of injury for "Reloadable Artillery Shells" is increasing. Some form of education on the product needs addressed. Better yet a change in product design. The people in charge of all of this need to conduct focus groups etc. There is a way to do it.
http://www.nfpa.org/~/media/images/research-and-reports/report-graphics/2012fireworksinjuries.jpg?la=en
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I do not have any data to show people I am helping through the ATF fireworks license are adding to the accident and injury rate. I am getting feedback that many people are learning professional fireworks from my videos. More than once I received feedback, when they work their first display the other technicians are commenting "Is this your first show?" "where did you learn all this?".

[whale7760]

Mr Bixler so far has summed it up most accurately. While many of us may think we are not operating "in commerce" because it is a personal display not a commercial one, we may do something along the way that automatically puts us "in commerce" unknowingly. Accepting any sort of payment or compensation automatically puts you in commerce, "they threw me a couple bucks for gas" puts you in commerce, they paid for the shells and I just shot them puts you in commerce, a bottle of water or a hot dog puts you in commerce, "they owe me one" puts you in commerce. If you are personally funding a show and completely assuming all expenses for it (including permits, transport costs, food, backrubs, etc) then you may not be in commerce. Always double check with the DOT. Your ATF rep does not have jurisdiction over the transport of your product, they will not always give you the correct advice. I have seen letters from their office telling people they were in commerce when they were not and vice versa. DOT has jurisdiction in these matters and decides to make the call when issues arise transporting, they are the ones you want to ask. Get your answers in writing, god bless email.

Sorry if it sounds like a rant, it is meant to encourage my fellow enthusiasts to proceed with caution and avoid any additional headaches from alphabet soup.

Therefore, if someone gives me money to purchase 1.4g product (not regulated by ATF) and I purchase some Thunderkings (1.3g and is regulated by ATF) with my own money and then fire the 1.4g product and the 1.3g Thunderkings at someone elses property (not my property), then am I still considered "not in commerce"?

[Northern Sky]

Therefore, if someone gives me money (This should be your first clue) to purchase 1.4g product (not regulated by ATF) and I purchase some Thunderkings (1.3g and is regulated by ATF) with my own money and then fire the 1.4g product and the 1.3g Thunderkings at someone elses property (not my property), then am I still considered "not in commerce"?

How did you come to this conclusion from Bixler's post. There was nothing what so ever in there about class of product.

ATF and DOT are completely separate. 1.3 and 1.4 don't mean anything to DOT.

If you get "compensated" to shoot 1.4 1.3 or 1.1 you are in commerce.

Period. End of sentence by the Letter of the Law.

[mbixler]

ATF has no jurisdiction over commerce. ATF could care less how you transported the product. I'm not sure how much clearer I could be. If you accept anythig for a show you are in commerce period. If you get paid for the 1.4 product then you have to comply with what DOT requires for transportation.

[mbixler]

NO! I've tried to tell you this 10 times. Especially when you start a gofundme for the show. You better have liability, dot and workers comp insurance along with a hazmat and all state and local permits to start.


just saying, what if my cusin was to give me say like 300 bucks for a show, and then i add another 150 bucks making a total of 450 bucks that would be non com cuase i lost money right? or am im still wrong?

[Melp]

displayfireworks1 perhaps you should consider putting more emphasis on the safe and legal use of class b fireworks rather than the ease of getting an ATF users permit. Suggesting to young people who may be somewhat inexperienced in the use of class c fireworks to run out and get an ATF users permit is a little shortsighted not mention potentially dangerous.

Dave I have been watching your videos for years now. In those years I have never seen a video were you didn't promote shooting fireworks responsibly. If not your videos it is the people on this site that when you get an ATF license they all say before you run out and buy 1.3 get into a club or a professional shoot to make sure you know what you are doing. I was invited to club shoots from people on this site. I was able to do a professional shoot myself and they were surprised at how much I already knew (thanks to you and the people on this site) they are now asking if I can shoot some of the 4th of july shows. Shortsighted I dont think so

[displayfireworks1]

I am bringing this thread back because I was reading over it again last night. The article is in the PGI bulletin 191 Nov 2014. Someone commented Ned did not have fireworks in the vehicle at the time of the accident. According to the article he told the fire chief there are "Some Explosives" in the wreckage, 10-20 lbs of black powder, stars and salute rocket headings. The fire chief questioned why his truck was not placarded, Ned went on to explain he was not in commerce. I am going to ask the PGI for permission to publish the article on the forums because I think it illustrates the "Not in Commerce" question and placards etc. Also it does emphasize the need for some form of an ATF license.