A license 54 question

[Melp]

Now that I have my license 54,I have had a couple of my clients want me to put on some shows for a company party and I have one wants me to do a shoot for his 25th wedding anniversary. I've already told them that I can't charge for doing the shoot and really would do them just for the fun of using my cobra and setting up the show. But I can't afford to pay for the shells so how do I have them buy the product and have me shoot them off without any legal problems?:confused:

[displayfireworks1]

I must have heard this type of request one hundred times. I think the first question is what is their budget? The second is where the location? I will save my opinion until you answer.

[CTPYRO]

They ( your friends ) would not be able to call say the distributor and pay for the product since only the license holder can pay for the product. If they give you the money and you pay for it that's another thing but purchasing large quantities of 1.3 can also make you seem in commerce as well. To be honest I've had the same questions asked of me though. Friend has someone that wants a show. Budget is 4k and half of that would be spent on 1.3 and the other on C product.

[Melp]

The wedding one is probably 500 - 750 I thought maybe get a case of color some cakes and some salutes and maybe a heart shell for the last one to go up. My client is a company that is in five different states but recently started a dealership here in michigan and wanted to have a summer picnic this summer at one of the cabinet manufacture here in michigan. Im sure that they would have a budget around 2500.00. As I have only made one purchase of 1.3 which was a case of ball shells, Im not sure how much 2500 will buy or how long of a show I could make

[Melp]

So if someone gives me money to cover the cost of the product not any for labor or profit is this okay and I wouldnt have any issues with my license

[Westpapyro]

I'd email that question to your local Atf agent, then you would have your answer in writing upon his reply. You can jump up and down till your pants fall off yelling I'm not in commerce but if you have it in writing " awesome sauce ".

But my opinion is you should be able to recoup all of expenses up to but not over what you spent? Even mileage should be included! But that's just my opinion.

[Melp]

I'd email that question to your local Atf agent, then you would have your answer in writing upon his reply. You can jump up and down till your pants fall off yelling I'm not in commerce but if you have it in writing " awesome sauce ".

But my opinion is you should be able to recoup all of expenses up to but not over what you spent? Even mileage should be included! But that's just my opinion.

Thats a good idea I can call her, she told me to call if i had any questions I thought maybe someone here had the same opportunity

[Westpapyro]

I think you missed my point, lots of veteran shooters have told me get it in writing! She could say one thing and three weeks later be saying something completely different! I'm not saying she will, I've just heard it happens. My guy told me to call but laughed and said or email me, for some reason you pyro guys always want it in writing, lol.

[pyrotech5]

Melp you do not have a license you have a user permit, their is a difference.

[mguerra]

The ATF has nothing to do with this. ATF does not deem you to be in commerce or not. If you are deemed to be in commerce, you have DOT requirements for transporting product and any applicable state requirements. ATF has no interest and no jurisdiction in these things. They vetted you to possess and store explosives. Period.
If you call them you are demonstrating your ignorance of the law. You want to shoot a show not in commerce. So do not have a contract and do not submit a bill for anything. Do not accept a check written out to you. Have the friend (they are NOT a "client") pay you cash for the cost of the product ONLY. There is no paper trail of any kind. Do not accept any money for gas, transportation , labor or ANY other expenses. You eat that. Set up the show and shoot it for your own pleasure. That's it.

[mguerra]

And by the way, you have to determine what state permits, pyrotechnician licenses and or insurance requirements do or do not apply to your show that is not commercial.

[displayfireworks1]

At mguerra
You relatively new at this and understand it very well, some people just want to make this more difficult than what it is. Still yet, there are others that want to minimize the newly ATF licensed individual. The ATF gave you all the permission they are going give you when they gave you the permit/license. Calling them to ask them to define if you are in commerce or not, or if and when you need shoot permits is not within their scope. The ATF is actually smart to give some nondescript answer to most questions. It is hard to fully define what I mean when I say this , if you wait for everyone to give you permission to shoot fireworks, you may never shoot fireworks. Some people need considerable reassurance to do something, others do not. You have to find where you fall in that spectrum.
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http://resources.infosecinstitute.com/wp-content/uploads/risk-tolerance-03082013.jpg

[CTPYRO]

The ATF has nothing to do with this. ATF does not deem you to be in commerce or not. If you are deemed to be in commerce, you have DOT requirements for transporting product and any applicable state requirements. ATF has no interest and no jurisdiction in these things. They vetted you to possess and store explosives. Period.
If you call them you are demonstrating your ignorance of the law. You want to shoot a show not in commerce. So do not have a contract and do not submit a bill for anything. Do not accept a check written out to you. Have the friend (they are NOT a "client") pay you cash for the cost of the product ONLY. There is no paper trail of any kind. Do not accept any money for gas, transportation , labor or ANY other expenses. You eat that. Set up the show and shoot it for your own pleasure. That's it.


That's as well said as your going to get... Amen my brother!!!

[Pyro k]

The ATF has nothing to do with this. ATF does not deem you to be in commerce or not. If you are deemed to be in commerce, you have DOT requirements for transporting product and any applicable state requirements. ATF has no interest and no jurisdiction in these things. They vetted you to possess and store explosives. Period.
If you call them you are demonstrating your ignorance of the law. You want to shoot a show not in commerce. So do not have a contract and do not submit a bill for anything. Do not accept a check written out to you. Have the friend (they are NOT a "client") pay you cash for the cost of the product ONLY. There is no paper trail of any kind. Do not accept any money for gas, transportation , labor or ANY other expenses. You eat that. Set up the show and shoot it for your own pleasure. That's it.
Well said!

[Melp]

This is why I like this site so much, if you read everyones post you come out with a real and useable answer. So my plan to shoot for my (FRIENDS) is if I can shoot on one of the holidays if possible if not I will pull a permit to shoot like for the 25th wedding anniversary. As I found out for new years eve here in michigan they dont give out permits on holidays and Im really not sure if they give out permits at all unless your downtown Grand Rapids. At most they just want to be notified about the noise.

[pyrotech5]

On page 3 which box did you check when applying?
http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-5400-13.pdf

You should have check the box under USER PERMIT.


Here is a cut and paste from the application that applies to you question

5.
A User Permit.
A User Permit authorizes the holder, on a continuing basis,
to acquire for his own use and not for resale, explosive materials from an
explosives licensee in interstate or foreign commerce, and to transport
explosive materials so acquired in interstate or foreign commerce. A User
Permit is issued for 3 years and is renewable.


" explosive materials from an explosives licensee"

Permit users may acquire from explosives licensee. Unless you have a dealers, manufactures or importers license you are not a licensee you have a USERS PERMIT.

Like I said their is a difference. But feel free to do as wish.