NY and type 54

[Overtrained]

I've talked to a few of you here in my introduction thread regarding the ATF license but i figured I'd post here so more people can chime in. I live on Long Island, NY and have a consistent space that I shoot a backyard show at a friends house in PA every year for the 4th, plenty of space and we get the permit to shoot the consumer stuff from the local FD.

I've been kicking the idea around for awhile about getting the ATF license, just bought Dave's dvd's to hopefully get the ball rolling. My biggest concern is New York State, from what I hear and read searching these forum's that they are a stickler for not allowing you to obtain this license here. I understand it's a federal license but I can't see this being a breeze of a process.

I have no intentions of shooting this stuff on Long Island, too crowded where I am at and also storage would probably be an issue on my 55x100(that's feet) lot of a house in Nassau county. If there is no contingency storage permitted in NYS then I feel like I should just ax the whole idea. Thanks for any input and I apologize if some of the questions are repetitive, just trying to get all my facts straight, hate going into stuff getting caught with my pants down.

Dennis

[Blackdevil77]

I've talked to a few of you here in my introduction thread regarding the ATF license but i figured I'd post here so more people can chime in. I live on Long Island, NY and have a consistent space that I shoot a backyard show at a friends house in PA every year for the 4th, plenty of space and we get the permit to shoot the consumer stuff from the local FD.

I've been kicking the idea around for awhile about getting the ATF license, just bought Dave's dvd's to hopefully get the ball rolling. My biggest concern is New York State, from what I hear and read searching these forum's that they are a stickler for not allowing you to obtain this license here. I understand it's a federal license but I can't see this being a breeze of a process.

I have no intentions of shooting this stuff on Long Island, too crowded where I am at and also storage would probably be an issue on my 55x100(that's feet) lot of a house in Nassau county. If there is no contingency storage permitted in NYS then I feel like I should just ax the whole idea. Thanks for any input and I apologize if some of the questions are repetitive, just trying to get all my facts straight, hate going into stuff getting caught with my pants down.

Dennis

Hey Dennis. Since you are gonna be shooting at a Buddy's house on the fourth and aren't planning on shooting here, maybe you can use his address and find a contingency storage plan out there so you only have to deal with PA's laws, which are MUCH easier to deal with than NY. I tried getting my type 54 here in NY, and it was so over the top, I ended up just putting my tail between my legs and walk up. I'm VERY curious to know how you do and how you do it, so if you end up getting it, please let me know how!!! I was told to get a type 54 in NY, you are not allowed to have a contingency storage plans. I've heard this from other folks that have their type 54 in NY, one of which I met at the PGI training course back in 2011. Also, I was told you have to shoot a minimum of 5 shows in which you are the lead shooter before you can get your type 54 AND have to shoot a minimum of 3 shows a year in which you are the lead shooter to maintain your type 54. This sounds crazy, I know. I was told this by a few type 54 license holders in NY, maybe they have a certain type of the license for NY, I'm not sure. PLEASE let me know what you find out.

Also (you can PM me) What part of Long Island are you from? I also live in Nassau County, land of the traffic, congestion and cramped living

[Overtrained]

Yeah thats ridiculous, I'm not trying to make a business out of it in any way. Theres got to be someway around it, hell i'll even put it in writing it will never be used in the state if I had to.

[Blackdevil77]

Yeah thats ridiculous, I'm not trying to make a business out of it in any way. Theres got to be someway around it, hell i'll even put it in writing it will never be used in the state if I had to.

I know, basically NY makes it so you can only get it if you shoot for a company. They don't want any "hobbyist" getting the license.

[mguerra]

The Type 54 is a federal license, not a state license. There is NO requirement in the federal license to shoot anything. The state may have shooting requirements to obtain a state license. In Texas we have to assist at five shows to get the state license, for example. The type 54 does require you to either have a magazine or a contingency storage plan. If the state of New York makes those things difficult or impossible, that is the state not the fed. The type 54 application assumes you are a business applicant and asks for a business address. You simply tell them that this is personal and not business. They don't require that the address you provide is your residence address in your home state. If you have a valid address in PA that you can use, that should be OK. Still, you either need contingency storage or a magazine in PA. Realize that if you have a magazine, you are required to inspect it weekly per the fed. In Texas there is a further state requirement to inspect it every 3 days! So if you live in NY and have a magazine in PA you have to comply with the fed and any PA inspection requirements. That may or may not be convenient for you. If you fully intend to store, by magazine or contingency, and shoot product only in PA, you can probably do this easily. Fill out the federal type 54 application, attach an addendum stating you are a hobbyist not a business and clearly state why you are using a PA address. It will probably fly.

[Blackdevil77]

The Type 54 is a federal license, not a state license. There is NO requirement in the federal license to shoot anything. The state may have shooting requirements to obtain a state license. In Texas we have to assist at five shows to get the state license, for example. The type 54 does require you to either have a magazine or a contingency storage plan. If the state of New York makes those things difficult or impossible, that is the state not the fed. The type 54 application assumes you are a business applicant and asks for a business address. You simply tell them that this is personal and not business. They don't require that the address you provide is your residence address in your home state. If you have a valid address in PA that you can use, that should be OK. Still, you either need contingency storage or a magazine in PA. Realize that if you have a magazine, you are required to inspect it weekly per the fed. In Texas there is a further state requirement to inspect it every 3 days! So if you live in NY and have a magazine in PA you have to comply with the fed and any PA inspection requirements. That may or may not be convenient for you. If you fully intend to store, by magazine or contingency, and shoot product only in PA, you can probably do this easily. Fill out the federal type 54 application, attach an addendum stating you are a hobbyist not a business and clearly state why you are using a PA address. It will probably fly.

Can the feds deny you the type 54 if you can't satisfy the state requirements that you reside in?

[Overtrained]

The Type 54 is a federal license, not a state license. There is NO requirement in the federal license to shoot anything. The state may have shooting requirements to obtain a state license. In Texas we have to assist at five shows to get the state license, for example. The type 54 does require you to either have a magazine or a contingency storage plan. If the state of New York makes those things difficult or impossible, that is the state not the fed. The type 54 application assumes you are a business applicant and asks for a business address. You simply tell them that this is personal and not business. They don't require that the address you provide is your residence address in your home state. If you have a valid address in PA that you can use, that should be OK. Still, you either need contingency storage or a magazine in PA. Realize that if you have a magazine, you are required to inspect it weekly per the fed. In Texas there is a further state requirement to inspect it every 3 days! So if you live in NY and have a magazine in PA you have to comply with the fed and any PA inspection requirements. That may or may not be convenient for you. If you fully intend to store, by magazine or contingency, and shoot product only in PA, you can probably do this easily. Fill out the federal type 54 application, attach an addendum stating you are a hobbyist not a business and clearly state why you are using a PA address. It will probably fly.


Ok clear this up for me, magazine storage is storage of the fireworks on your premises in basically a blow proof container secured yada yada yada.....contingency storage is the place you purchase 1.3g products from within a close distance of the shooting sight so they can hold them for you until ready for use? At least thats how I understand it. That being said you can have one without the other?

This address I use in PA is a friends house, ill go as far as calling him family to me but its his address not mine. The ATF interviews at this address, correct? And will mail paperwork to this address, correct? I dont have an issue with this im just concerned its not my actual place of residence when providing the ATF my information.

[mguerra]

The type 54 is a federal license allowing you to buy and possess 1.3G explosives. That's it.
It is not a fireworks USAGE license. It is NOT a pyrotechnicians license.
It is not a permit to shoot fireworks. They don't care if you have a state license to USE fireworks, as far as the fed is concerned that is between you and the state.
What they want from you that the STATE might regulate is STORAGE, either a magazine or a contingency storage plan. They want you to provide evidence that, if you have a magazine, you have complied with any state and local regulations regarding magazines. Same for a contingency plan, if you have that they want evidence that your plan complies with any state regs that might apply to that. It makes sense that if they will allow you to possess explosives that you have a legal method to STORE them. They are not concerned with how the state licenses or regulates your USE of 1.3G fireworks. You don't have to provide them with a state pyro license. If the state of New York has rules regarding magazines and you have a magazine, the fed wants to see you complied with New Yorks magazine rules. If you instead have a contingency plan and the state of New York has rules about contingency plans, you have to show the fed you complied with New Yorks contingency plan rules. Now, if you have your own magazine the fed has their own set of rules regarding construction, locking, capacity, distance from roads and dwellings and so on, separate from what your state might require. If you want to know what they want, get the application and read it. It is very simple and straightforward.

[mguerra]

A magazine is not "blow proof". That is not it's purpose. A magazine is designed to secure explosives against theft and accidental ignition, that's it.

[mguerra]

The ATF needs an address to communicate with you, and to inspect your magazine if you have one. They do not expect this address to be your residence necessarily. In fact since most applicants are businesses not individuals they expect most of these addresses to be business addresses. Advise them of exactly what you are doing and why. Do not try to conceal it. They are vetting you to see you are not a criminal and making sure you have a safe legal storage method. That you live in New York and store in PA will probably not be an issue.

[Overtrained]

Alright thanks for the input. Im waiting for Dave's Dvd's and forms and ill go over everything when I get them. I know storage where i live will be a huge problem and if NY doesnt let you have a contingency storage plan then ill do the forms based in PA. I have nothing to lose either way im just not thrilled with giving the government all my info for no reason if it fails but what the heck, i buy enough firearms that they know about.

[Overtrained]

The ATF needs an address to communicate with you, and to inspect your magazine if you have one. They do not expect this address to be your residence necessarily. In fact since most applicants are businesses not individuals they expect most of these addresses to be business addresses. Advise them of exactly what you are doing and why. Do not try to conceal it. They are vetting you to see you are not a criminal and making sure you have a safe legal storage method. That you live in New York and store in PA will probably not be an issue.

Thanks again for the insight, i plan on doing the right thing by all, hope it works out the way i want it too.

[mguerra]

Yes. You need either a magazine OR a contingency plan, not both, for the type 54. I haven't asked, but you are probably allowed to have both. For example my type IV magazine is limited to 50 pounds of explosive material. If I had a big show planned with well over 50 pounds of explosive material at the shoot site and had to cancel, I might want that contingency plan! For safety, I am only purchasing a max of 50 pounds of explosive material in the form of 1.3G fireworks until such time as I get a bigger magazine or a contingency plan. My shows are mostly 1.4G with 1.3G added to amp it up. That's 50 pounds of powder BTW, not gross weight of fireworks.

[Blam Blam]

I haven't asked, but you are probably allowed to have both

You sure can, you can have contingency storage with an many folks as you want, need, can get it from.


For example my type IV magazine is limited to 50 pounds of explosive material.

Indoor?

[Blackdevil77]

Check out this link I just found from Kellners Fireworks

http://www.kellfire.com/askbob.html

Here's a direct quote from the Q and A, copy and pasted:

"Question: Hi, I am very interested in obtaining type 54 permit and was wondering how difficult it would be on getting the permit in California? Is the process the same for every state? - Adam

Bobs Answer: Hello Adam,
The answer is “yes” and “no”.
There are four main requirements for getting your type 54 permit to use Display Fireworks.
That you are over 21 years of age.
That you have never had a felony.
That if you are not close enough to your supplier to pick up your products on the morning of your show, you have or can use an approved explosives storage magazine.
That you have state and local approval to use fireworks.

Numbers 3 and 4 would prove more difficult in some states than in others.
I hope that this helped.

Best Regards, Bob Kellner"

This confuses me slightly so I'm hoping some of you may clarify. Bob says here are the 4 main things needed to obtain your type 54 license to USE fireworks. 2 of those 4 things involve satisfying state laws, mostly number 4.

[Overtrained]

Somebody has to have went through this process for NY just to shoot stuff on a hobbyist level. What about entire upstate NY, it's as rural as PA.

[mguerra]

You need state and local approval and/ or licensing and/ or permits and/ or insurance in most localities to SHOOT 1.3G product. This is different for every locality. You do NOT need those things to get a type 54 from the fed. You do need a type 54 to BUY and POSSESS 1.3G product. I just went through the process and got my type 54. The ATF did not require me to have a state license to SHOOT. They did require me to prove my ability to legally store the product. I had to provide evidence that I had notified the AHJ, which in this case was the county fire marshal of my magazine and the county fire marshal had to indicate it was legal.

[Blackdevil77]

You need state and local approval and/ or licensing and/ or permits and/ or insurance in most localities to SHOOT 1.3G product. This is different for every locality. You do NOT need those things to get a type 54 from the fed. You do need a type 54 to BUY and POSSESS 1.3G product. I just went through the process and got my type 54. The ATF did not require me to have a state license to SHOOT. They did require me to prove my ability to legally store the product. I had to provide evidence that I had notified the AHJ, which in this case was the county fire marshal of my magazine and the county fire marshal had to indicate it was legal.

Pardon my stupid question, but what is AHJ? If I don't have a storage plan, you think someone like me would be able to get the type 54, if all I wanted to do was be able to buy and shoot 1.3g products at meets etc? I have no intention of saving or storing the products anyway.

I don't mean to hi-jack, if this is too far off the original topic, please ignore me.

[mguerra]

AHJ is Authority Having Jurisdiction and it means your local fire safety person. It could be the city fire marshal, the county fire marshal, the sherrif or any person designated in your community to be the fire safety guy.
To get the type 54 you HAVE to have the ability to store product. The fed, that is to say the ATF, requires you to 1)either have your own magazine or 2)have a letter of agreement with someone who does have a magazine. That letter of agreement is the "contingency plan". The typical scenario if you don't have your own magazine is that you will pick up your product on the day of your shoot, take it to the shoot site, set it up and fire it all off. If you don't fire it all off for any reason you have to return it immediately to the storage magazine of the person with whom you have this agreement, this "contingency plan". That will usually be the guy you buy from. So if you have left over product at 10:00 PM on the Fourth, you have to drive to your contingency magazine and return the product. And your vendor has to have someone there at that hour to receive it. If that's a two or three or four hour round trip drive you are going to bed at 1 or 2 or 3 in the AM! Might be nice to have your own magazine if it is feasible. Either that or hope you can find a vendor really close by.

[Overtrained]

AHJ is Authority Having Jurisdiction and it means your local fire safety person. It could be the city fire marshal, the county fire marshal, the sherrif or any person designated in your community to be the fire safety guy.
To get the type 54 you HAVE to have the ability to store product. The fed, that is to say the ATF, requires you to 1)either have your own magazine or 2)have a letter of agreement with someone who does have a magazine. That letter of agreement is the "contingency plan". The typical scenario if you don't have your own magazine is that you will pick up your product on the day of your shoot, take it to the shoot site, set it up and fire it all off. If you don't fire it all off for any reason you have to return it immediately to the storage magazine of the person with whom you have this agreement, this "contingency plan". That will usually be the guy you buy from. So if you have left over product at 10:00 PM on the Fourth, you have to drive to your contingency magazine and return the product. And your vendor has to have someone there at that hour to receive it. If that's a two or three or four hour round trip drive you are going to bed at 1 or 2 or 3 in the AM! Might be nice to have your own magazine if it is feasible. Either that or hope you can find a vendor really close by.

There will be no left overs lol

[Blam Blam]

There will be no left overs lol

Destroying duds and un-fired product is usually an option, just be careful if you decide to go that route.

[mguerra]

We assume and hope there are no left overs. But circumstances beyond our control can occur. Say there is an accident and you are required to stop the show. You have to deal with the unfired product. There are lots of other possible scenarios,too.

[Overtrained]

Alright I got Dave's DVD's and watched them last night. Looks like I shouldnt have a problem using a PA address as the place of "business" and my mailing address as my home town in NY. If you read earlier in the thread I plan to ONLY shoot in PA and i will disclose these intentions to the ATF. I'm not going to pursue this license until after the 4th this year but while I'm in PA next weekend i want to discuss this with my friend who's house address/land im using as well as the local fire department who issues the consumer fireworks permit each year. Question for everyone now is who is the the closet 1.3g dealer to Thompson, PA so i can establish a contingency plan?

[Overtrained]

18465 is the Zip I need a dealer near, sponsors perhaps?

[displayfireworks1]

Thank you for purchasing my ATF/DVD package. It looks like you will be shooting near this section of Pennsylvania I have pictured below below.
http://pics2.city-data.com/city/maps5/frt6208.png
.
One of my sponsors is near this location
International Pyrotechnic Importers . Send them an email after the fourth and tell them you purchased my video package, then detail out your shoot.
http://pyroimports.com/
.
You are going to ask for Zack.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NA_jsJFEpQI

[Overtrained]

Thank you for purchasing my ATF/DVD package. It looks like you will be shooting near this section of Pennsylvania I have pictured below below.
http://pics2.city-data.com/city/maps5/frt6208.png
.
One of my sponsors is near this location
International Pyrotechnic Importers . Send them an email after the fourth and tell them you purchased my video package, then detail out your shoot.
http://pyroimports.com/
.
You are going to ask for Zack.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NA_jsJFEpQI



Thats perfect Dave, Thanks! Wilkes-Barre is on the way to my location in Thompson. Ill talk to Zack in a few weeks. Thanks again.

Dennis

[Blackdevil77]

I e-mailed pyro imports Yesterday, but am not expecting a response until after the fourth. I can imagine how busy they are.

Dave, their location on Long Island is within 20 minutes from me at 400 Broadhollow Rd. What exactly is that location? Would I be able to pass by one day after the fourth and talk to somebody over there?

[Overtrained]

I e-mailed pyro imports Yesterday, but am not expecting a response until after the fourth. I can imagine how busy they are.

Dave, their location on Long Island is within 20 minutes from me at 400 Broadhollow Rd. What exactly is that location? Would I be able to pass by one day after the fourth and talk to somebody over there?

What town are they in on Long Island?

[Blackdevil77]

What town are they in on Long Island?

Farmingdale

[displayfireworks1]

At Blackdevil77
I would not just stop in, things do not work that way. I would recommend emailing Zack at IPI. Zach is the liaison I work with at IPI referring new people for the privately held ATF license folks. All these people in the 1.3 business are extremely busy this time of year.

[Blackdevil77]

At Blackdevil77
I would not just stop in, things do not work that way. I would recommend emailing Zack at IPI. Zach is the liaison I work with at IPI referring new people for the privately held ATF license folks. All these people in the 1.3 business are extremely busy this time of year.

I e-mailed Zach a couple of days ago. I understand they're busy, I'm not expecting a reply until after the fourth.

Okay, I wasn't sure what type of place it was (office building, client meeting center or whatever). I'll wait for the e-mail

[Mattp]

Hi all, i realize this is an old thread, but i have the exact same situation. i am new here on pyrotalk, have been following displayfireworks1 on youtube and Just ordered daves dvds. I live on long island in Nassau. My brother lives in stroudsburg pa. Just curious if it worked out for you because it does seem that ny makes it much more difficult
Any input would be greatly appreciated.. i think about it every year and am now ready to step up my game..i dont belong to any clubs or organizations.. but will do so if it helps me get my type54
Thank you