1.4 G versus 1.3G

[mguerra]

How do 2.5" 1.3G shells compare to Excalibur, in terms of performance? The best price I have been able to get on Excal is $1.56/ shell, before shipping. Dave has a video on another thread here showing 90 1.3G 2.5" shells he got for about $100.00 so that is $1.11/ shell. If you can get better performance for cheaper by using 1.3G instead of 1.4G, I would love to know that! I'm working on getting my type 54 in any case.
Michael

[tntrealty1]

I will tell you if you are looking to save money by going with 1.3g over 1.4g product you will be disappointed. If you are looking for a bigger bang and more options for your dollar than 1.3g can help you. It would be great if 1.4g manufacturers would supply there canister shells by the case minus all the packaging and tubes. That would save some serious dollars.

[Dart]

. It would be great if 1.4g manufacturers would supply there canister shells by the case minus all the packaging and tubes. That would save some serious dollars.

http://www.phmsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/PHMSA/DownloadableFiles/Files/Hazmat/Guidance_ClassTransport_Aerial_Shell_Kit_9_12_2013 .pdf

[PGH_Pyro]

2.5" 1.3G shells break more uniformly/spherical . a bigger report .

[mguerra]

I wasn't thinking that 1.3 would be cheaper, not by a long shot! But if small 1.3 outperformed big 1.4 at a lower price that would be a nice perk after getting the type 54.

[PyroJoeNEPA]

The 2 1/2" shells will break harder & louder than the 1.75" cans...with a little more height--but bear in mind you will also have the added expense of buying 2 1/2" tubes to make racks & also have the storage issue [magazine or contingency & inventory paperwork] to deal with. There are some nice effects in the 1.75" cans but the breaks almost always are sloppy & not as symmetrical as a ball shell of any size.

[CTPYRO]

I personally love the Excals to be honest. Not sure how this years will perform, but last two years have been very impressive. As for 2.5" shells.... I love the Lidu salutes....get them in chains and your rocking!

[mguerra]

I'm doing a big automated show Saturday. We will do a little manual remote pre-show to set up the cameras and also to compare Cutting Edge Firearm shells to Excal. I will have the crowd vote. I'm also going to put up those ridiculous ball shells disguised as cans that I posted in another thread, Mr. W Best.

[Bighorn]

In my opinion there is no comparison over 2.5 inch shells over consumer canister shells. Once you get your license and your first case of shells you will see what I am talking about!

[PuroJon]

I'm doing a big automated show Saturday. We will do a little manual remote pre-show to set up the cameras and also to compare Cutting Edge Firearm shells to Excal. I will have the crowd vote. I'm also going to put up those ridiculous ball shells disguised as cans that I posted in another thread, Mr. W Best.

My impression is that The "Firearm" shells are just a repack of their "King Arthur", meaning they are rewrapped Excal shells (Cutting Edge = World Class). Anxious to see what you think after you shoot them. The Cutting Edge "AR-15" seems the 30 shell pack of the same shells...

[Dart]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZECYkjFlIQ

[mguerra]

If you select your product right, and work out your timing properly, you can put on a really crowd pleasing show with just 1.4G fireworks. I put on a nice show on Feb. 1 , 32 cues over about 15 or 16 minutes, and the crowd went nuts for it, all 1.4G. One trick I use is to fire either 2 or 3 500 gram fan cakes simultaneously on one cue. I space the double cakes about 30 feet apart, one left and one right. I space the triple cakes about 50 feet apart from right to left with one in the middle. For those fan cakes that specify one side to face the audience, I face one toward and one away. This way the fan firing is a mirror image. For the triple cakes I face the far right and far left cakes one toward and one away, and the middle cake it doesn't matter. This cake arrangement really fills the sky if you put the crowd about 125 feet from the product. Why 125 feet? The recommendation for a commercial display is to put the crowd 70 feet away per inch of mortar shell. 1.75 inches x 70 feet/inch = 122.5 feet. For the mortars I use only Excalibur. The combo of Excal shells and double or triple fan cakes really jacks up the crowd. Until I get my 1.3 license, this is working very well for my shows.

[PuroJon]

Very good advice there mguerra...

[Northern Sky]

Why 125 feet? The recommendation for a commercial display is to put the crowd 70 feet away per inch of mortar shell. 1.75 inches x 70 feet/inch = 122.5 feet. For the mortars I use only Excalibur. The combo of Excal shells and double or triple fan cakes really jacks up the crowd. Until I get my 1.3 license, this is working very well for my shows.

The distances are supposed to be double for chains and cakes as I understand.

[PuroJon]

The distances are supposed to be double for chains and cakes as I understand.

Huh? Could you explain that please? You are saying that a 500g 1.4g cake requires a spectator proximity about 225 feet? Never heard or seen any state which requires that.

[mguerra]

No, I am not saying there is any distance requirement for 1.4G.
There isn't.
But there is a distance requirement for 1.3G, and if you think it makes sense, you can APPLY it to 1.4G. For 1.4G you could stand right next to a cake or mortar if you wanted to. It wouldn't be particularly smart to do that! But I want to be safe with ANY firework so I use that distance requirement for 1.3G and apply it to my 1.4G shows.

[Northern Sky]

Huh? Could you explain that please? You are saying that a 500g 1.4g cake requires a spectator proximity about 225 feet? Never heard or seen any state which requires that.

As a rule of thumb, 1.4 for viewers, is 150 feet. The 1.3 70 feet per inch is for individually, fired shells with aerial breaks. When using cakes or chains that distance is doubled. If there is no aerial break, comets, mines, gerbs, etc the distance is 35' per inch. This is because of the danger difference of aerial and multiple mortars. Think about it. It makes sense.

As far as standing next to a shell or cake; go ahead, enjoy. On the other hand; lets say something happens; a cake blows apart sending your precious "overloaded" special effects at you, occupied structures and your house-spectators. What will be your first reaction? Let me guess, you're wearing your "if I'm running you better keep up shirt".

What is your exposure - liability in that case?

Now imaging you had appropriate distances, had water cans, "fire extinguishers" there, and ready; for 1.3 and in some instances 1.4 the fire dept there. What is your exposure - liability in that case? What would "your" insurance company think?

Some people follow the "it is easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission" motto. Good luck with that if something unexpected happens. Accidents happen true, but so do law suits. Your friends are your friends but, a lot of people think with their wallets. If there is a wind fall available, what are the chances of a friend choosing their family over friendship? I'd rather spend the extra time and money to do it legally and correctly up front, than pay some money grubbing lawyer. How does it differ between a legal permitted display and an illegal un-permitted one.

Roll the dice. Are you feeling lucky?

[PGH_Pyro]

To avoid some of the cake blowing apart and shooting debris/shrapnel at the spectators thing you can put boards/shields up and around the cakes so the blast is forced straight up(even with the 70ft guideline). I have seen some big 500gr. 1.4 cakes shoot the shell/insert out horizontally at a high velocity and I nearly took a hit from one, once . Little troubling it was at the time . However to take a hit from a 1.3 shell or salute - fuhgeddaboutitt . You wouldn't want that to happen .
Buy high quality cakes . Don't buy the cheapy crappy brands or from the cheapy vendors/retailers .
Brace your cakes with wood stakes and duct tape . I know of a few techs that will brace even the smallest of 1.4 cakes.
Suppose you could put sand-bags/dirt/earth mounds in front of the cakes as well but a lot of work/clean up, obviously.

[PuroJon]

As far as standing next to a shell or cake; go ahead, enjoy. On the other hand; lets say something happens; a cake blows apart sending your precious "overloaded" special effects at you, occupied structures and your house-spectators. What will be your first reaction? Let me guess, you're wearing your "if I'm running you better keep up shirt".



Uncalled for. I simply asked him to clarify his 225 foot perimeter for 500g 1.4g cakes. Said nothing about 'precious overloaded effects' and take mild insult that you infer I may have suggested anything un-safe, unsavory or inexperienced; or illegal. Maybe you read the reply and 'heard' a tone that struck a bad note with you? Really not in my nature Northern Sky. I may have shot a bit more than you assumed, and know no one with a more paranoid level of safety than me.

I understand the context and spirit of your reply and the dramatic license taken for effect, and mean no insult towards you. Hope we can meet at an upcoming NEOPG event and share the smiles not shown in the messages, you know? I hear they are one smiley group of Ohiopyronians... heh...

[displayfireworks1]

Sky
Relax, your post looks like a copy and past from pyro-u, he asking some reasonable questions to gain information. Lets keep the theme of posting friendly.

[Northern Sky]

Sorry if my post came off harshly. I didn't intend to hurt anybody's feelings with it but breath a breath of caution. I have seen some pretty scary stuff happen over the years in different situations. When it comes to safety I feel there is little room for, "I'm sorry, I didn't expect that to happen".

A buddy of mine had to have facial reconstruction when a 1.3 cake catoed in the field on a display where he was hand firing shells at legal distances. That was from the insert striking him in the cheek bone turning his own face into shrapnel. Fortunately it ricocheted before it the effect fired. He is lucky to be alive. The surgeon said if the insert had hit his safety glasses it would have been worse because they were not designed to take that kind of hit and he would have probably lost his eye.

I have friends who's houses have burned down from stray sparks landing and going unnoticed for hours igniting . I myself had a huge flowerbed smolder all night after the shoot-site had been hosed down after the evening's festivities at my house. In the morning when I let the dog out my whole back yard was covered in smoke. Mind you, my back yard is 200' wide with a shadowbox fence 10' high running the width. The entire area was professionally built and landscaped. I was EXTREMELY fortunate no major damage occurred. If that were my neighbor's house, How would that have ended?

I once read "learning from your mistakes gives you knowledge. Learning from the mistakes makes you wise". I wish I were a little wiser and not quite so knowledgeable.
It was no copy and paste from anywhere. It is from my own memories. I have no regret about those memories because the rules were followed. If I hadn't I am sure there would have been some nightmares.

There is little difference handling 1.4 and 1.3. If you disrespect 1.4 you might get hurt or hurt someone else. If 1.3 is disrespected you or someone else might be killed of badly hurt. If proper safety measures are followed with 1.4 the transition to 1.3 is easy.

PuroJon I look forward to the opportunity to meet you. I was at PGI, La Port 2 years ago and Butler last year. Look me up. I met some of the guys at Collier this summer. I am originally a "Burgher" myself.

No hostility was intended just words of caution. Dancing around safety issues is unsafe. Just away to get your mug on You Tube or the evening news.

:)

[mguerra]

I never hand fire anything. I'm all remote, all the time. Sky's story there about the guy who had his face shredded is a good example of why! I will have to do some hand firing to get licensed, but that's it.

[mguerra]

When using cakes or chains that distance is doubled.That's partially correct. The distance is doubled for chain fused mortars IF your racks cannot withstand an explosive malfunction and retain their position. The cake distance is not doubled, but is the same as for the mines, comets, or aerial effects that the cake contains. See: NFPA 1123 5.1.3.3 and 5.1.3.4

[PGH_Pyro]

I mostly hand-fire and am ok with the risk. I wear a heavy duty lumberjack helmet with face-shield, nomex balaclava, nomex gloves . I get well away after torching salutes and bigger diameter shells . I have hand-lit the finale, a few times, as well but I get the F outta there once it goes .

[PyroJW]

Not true. You do not have to do "some" hand firing to get your license. We electronic fire every show. In Texas-(1) assisted in conducting at least five permitted or licensed public displays in Texas under the direct supervision of and verified in writing by a pyrotechnic operator licensed in Texas. You should join us for are Shooters school in March as we will do sign offs. This will require set up, clean up, tear down. Generally a very long 12-16 hour day if not longer on each show you would help with. This depends how many crew members are present as well. Generally the lead shooter will pay for your meals and that is the gist of it to get your sign offs.


497

[mguerra]

I have since learned a lot more about getting licensed in Texas and did take that shooters school in Mansfield. I saw a video of a shooters class where they hand fired some shells and thought that 1. You had to take a shooters class to get licensed. (You don't.) And 2. All shooters classes required hand firing. (They don't.)