"Cannister" shell scam

[mguerra]

I bought some cans that were just ball shells inside a can shaped cylinder:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gUuPFsGdOA

[mguerra]

I am in discussion with the company regarding this and will post an update when available.

[blackcat1]

This happens a lot and has for years. Same is true with 500g vs "up to" 500g. Or really any other firework that is sleeved or not maxing out at the legal limit.

Looking at your video it doesn't seem that the package is labeled as containing cannisters. The only thing I can see is that it says "20 Assorted Invincible Shells." I am not familiar with Mr. W brand. Does the box say anywhere on it that they are cannisters? If not, I think this can be chalked up to good marketing, which by its nature is typically deceptive, rather than an actual scam.

Now if it does say cannister anywhere on the packaging, by all means flame on. Otherwise this is not much different than "cone" fountains that are nothing more than a big empty cone with an insert at the tip. Same thing as when companies shrank orange juice containers from 64oz to 59oz but kept the proportions the same. Or when others put a big hump in the bottom of jars of peanuts but the size of the jar is the same.

Does Mr. W have a reputation for quality? Or are they the Shelton's of Texas? How did the shells perform? Like a generic ball shell or a premium ball shell? Hopefully you didn't try to fire the non-sleeved shell in the same tube. Might break a little low.

Also, please be careful dissecting fireworks. It can be dangerous even if you know what you are doing, especially if you are using a ferrous blade. If you insist on doing it, please consider using brass, plastic or some other non-sparking material. Don't do it inside your house - your insurance company probably wouldn't cover your loss if there was an accident. And again if you insist on doing it, don't keep anything combustible on the same work surface or really anywhere close by.

I'm not a profressional pyrotechnician. Nor am I a shell builder. I am just a hobbiest with a bit of experience - serious into the hobby for the last seven years - who doesn't want to see another pyro get hurt. I hope you take this in the spirit in which it was intended. Have fun and be safe.

[mguerra]

The box has a clear plastic window that displays the "cans" clearly. The artwork has a sword motif clearly meant to emulate Excal. I only buy from a local stand rarely, so I'm not familiar with the reputation/performance of Mr W in general. They are a big player here in Texas. I have not fired any of the "cans" nor the extracted ball shell yet. I have some smaller cardboard tubes meant for this size shell and will fire it and compare it to the intact "can". When I went to the stand to purchase some fireworks, purely to support the church, I asked the staff to show me their line-up of cannister shells. I specifically said I wanted Excal if they had it, or any equivalent Mr W product. They took me straight to MR W Best. I have heard this admonition to be careful when dissecting fireworks with a sparking blade before. For the life of me I can't understand how cardboard and paper, tape and glue, could ever create a spark. But, you are not the first person to mention it so I will heed that advice in future. A Mr W company representative gave me a long explanation of why they pack a ball shell in a can, I may post that later after I finish with him. One thing he said was that this is a premium ball with 45 grams of powder. The entire ball shell, intact, weighs 2 ounces, about 50 grams, on a kitchen scale. Until I get an accurate gram scale and measure the powder, I am doubting there is 45 grams of powder in there.

[PuroJon]

Only thing that really matters is the performance. If its good - who cares? If its bad - don't buy more of them.

[PyroJoeNEPA]

I have heard this admonition to be careful when dissecting fireworks with a sparking blade before. For the life of me I can't understand how cardboard and paper, tape and glue, could ever create a spark. But, you are not the first person to mention it so I will heed that advice in future.
You are right that cardboard, paper, tape, & glue will not cause a spark. However--where people can get into trouble is when they cut into a pyrotechnic device not knowing what the blade is coming into contact with on the other side of the paper. Some star compositions contain Iron, Titanium, Magnesium, and other metals which could cause a spark. Not very likely, but it only takes one accident to maim or kill someone.
Packaging & marketing has always been a big thing in promoting Class C fireworks sales--fountains on a stick made to look like a rocket being sold in the "safe & sane" market, big boxes with small tubes in them, etc. It is all part of the industry & falls under the "Do you really get what you pay for" category. It will be interesting to see where your "quest for truth & justice" goes with this distributor. Keep us posted!

[blackcat1]

One thing he said was that this is a premium ball with 45 grams of powder. The entire ball shell, intact, weighs 2 ounces, about 50 grams, on a kitchen scale. Until I get an accurate gram scale and measure the powder, I am doubting there is 45 grams of powder in there.

I hate to set you up for dissapointment, but there is no way a 1.75" or smaller ball shell can hold that much using standard components. If it is more than 30-35g of burst charge, hulls and stars - minus the lift charge - I would be really surprised.


When I went to the stand to purchase some fireworks, purely to support the church, I asked the staff to show me their line-up of cannister shells. I specifically said I wanted Excal if they had it, or any equivalent Mr W product. They took me straight to MR W Best.

I certainly sympathize, but in my experience seasonal employees are not pyros and have only the faintest idea about performance, construction, etc. But going from what you said in the video, the main thing is that your money went to a good cause. Kind of like getting ripped off buying the Boy Scout popcorn for 5x what you would pay otherwise.

Like Joe said concerning packaging, it can certainly be deceptive. There are umpteen different kits out there that have something that looks like a sword, a different kind of sword, packaging that mimics big brand shells, etc. Retail packaging is intended to entice buyers into buying the biggest, heaviest thing on the shelf. And they may have heard from a friend to "look for the one with the sword on it."

The lack of knowledge at most of the stands and with seasonal employees at brick and mortar stores is why when I shop them, I usually am just picking up some small stuff to have fun with at out the farm. For my retail purchases that I am putting any real time or money into, I usually wait to talk to the owner to get recommendations if I am picking up something new. In the end I hope you and yours have a good time with them. Have fun and stay safe.

[mguerra]

That's funny about the Boy Scout popcorn, I buy it for the inflated price just to flip them a few bucks, and then hand it right back to them to sell again.
Like I said, I know there's not 45 grams of powder there. I won't be disappointed, but I do want a number when I talk to the Mr W guy again. I'll probably go back and buy a little from the church in the future, just to be supportive. I make my big bulk purchases online from WF Boom and a few other online sources, so I don't really care that much about this. In fact I just ordered three gross of Excal from one of them. But I do want Mr W to know that I know what's going on! I did go back to the store and show the folks there the little ball in cylinder trick, along with an Excal shell. They said they would tell the pastor about it. The Mr W rep told me they do have a line of full 60 gram premium canisters, but there weren't any at the store I went to.

[displayfireworks1]

Thanks for taking the time to make and post this video. I love when people expose this sort of deception. World Class is one of my advertisers, I sent your video to them, however, I would speculate they have seen this sort of thing more than a few times.
It is a great marketing strategy to get non-profits to sell fireworks, most of these organizations are struggling to raise funds. If you add children working these stands, you are going to increase your sales. The best salespersons in the world are children. There is a candy maker in my hometown that became a millionaire with children and sports teams selling his candy.
Sometimes when teenagers knock on my door selling something, I try to educate them a little. I will ask if I buy something for $20.00 from you how much will you get from that sell? They usually do not know the answer. Then I will suggest they should look into this. I will just give them say $10.00 without receiving anything. I will tell them by me doing this they will make more money and I will save some money. Who knows if they will turn the money over to the organization or not, hopefully it may teach one of them something. You have to get the idea out of your head you will feel guilty if you are not a part of this rip off because it is all couched under this charitable cause stuff. The one positive thing I can say about the candy seller in my hometown was and is the candy was and continues to be of the highest quality and the children sold it for the exact same price as it was in his store.
Is any of this true about this Mr. W Fireworks out of Texas? Not only is he selling a fireworks product that copies the Excalibur artillery shell, he further goes into the deception by disguising the product to look like something it is not. I would love to know if he is directly importing these products.
Cheating people is easy, you and I can cheat each other all day long. The real talent is to cheat people and they feel good about being cheated. It is a shame reputable organizations are part of this. My guess is they know little about fireworks products. I glad you spoke up to educate them. I would also recommend you send your video to people that run the non-profit.

[gunner1]

Hmm...me thinks I just read this same complaint a few days ago on another forum by the same poster.

[PyroManiacs]

Its good that you brought this brand to light..... it gives an insiders view of what to stay away from when purchasing new prodcuts... and yes I said prodCUTS.... cause they are cutting out the product.

[pyroM!KE]

THIS IS THE CASE WITH ALL GOOD FIREWORKS YOU FIND. Over the years I have bought all different kind of works. Every year I make sure to fondle what I normally buy. Most times if it changes in any way its likely watered down.2 years ago I found a non brand cannister shell that I was excited about.I lit one and all it was, was a peanut shell wraped in a can.AND THEY SUCKED.

[Dart]

It's marketing, I'd be surprised if there was a single brand/label/company that did not have some level of deceptive/exploitive marketing/business practices.

http://www.jakesfireworks.com/one-bad-mother-3.html

[pyroM!KE]

It's marketing, I'd be surprised if there was a single brand/label/company that did not have some level of deceptive/exploitive marketing/business practices.

http://www.jakesfireworks.com/one-bad-mother-3.html
Yeah that 3 inch OBM is a scam,but since they came out with it, they have watered down the 16 shot OBM. The 3 inch is better than the 16 shot now.I bought a 2012 OBM 16 shot batch a year ago(it was not wet as it was in my storage building for over a year) and I was highly disappointed. Ive shot 200g cakes that are better and I used to buy OBM every year.Not anymore.Actually Im pretty much done with world class.

[Dart]

http://www.jakesfireworks.com/american-made-shells.html
It would be cool if Dave could tour the factory where these are made, like he did with Phantom's hub

[mguerra]

Okay, I finally got a gram scale and measured the Mr. W Best.
Total shell weight: 48.3 grams
Lift charge: 4.2 grams
Composition: 15.8 grams

So the Mr. W Best does not have anywhere near 60 grams of powder. They do not claim that, of course, but if you think you are getting a premium max load canister shell based on the packaging and appearance, you are not!

[Jman]

Importer/wholesalers usually have all the control over the way fireworks are built/assembled over in China. This is obviously a kit that Mr.W re-wrapped but its definitely not Excalibur. Excalibur kits have 24 shells, they're heavy, come with hdpe tubes and each shell it labeled with the word "TOP" to hopefully prevent consumers from accidentally loading them upside down. It is illegal to remove the word "TOP" because it is a CPSC requirement. So even a re-wrapped Excalibur kit must have the word "TOP" visible to the customer. Its still the same shell kit and re-wrapping it does not remove the guidelines set forth by the CPSC.

Winda has a kit called Salute Over America, same thing, balls inside cans. I reckon all companies have these deception kits, they view it as a way to offer the customer can shell kits at a cheaper cost. I don't agree with it, I think the customer should have the right to choose, less money for a ball shell or more money for a true can shell. I have a retail fireworks store, I know what everything in my store does. I've shot all of it myself and I've seen it all multiple times at demo's, fellow pyro's shows etc... Therefore I would never carry this product because I personally have the knowledge that I'd be lying to my customers and I have more respect for the people I serve than that. Sadly though, most of your run of the mill 4th of July customers just don't care. I see it all the time in my own store. I beg people to buy the better stuff and they just go for whats cheap most of the time. I do have a few customers who are more into pyro and want a good show. They are greatly rewarded and get more than their monies worth for letting me help them set up their show with QUALITY instead of QUANTITY.

I'm glad you are not holding it against the baptist church, I can guarantee they have no idea. The only way they are gonna know is if you show them. Its the company they bought from who is to blame in this situation.

Last, I agree with an earlier poster who commented that its how it performs that really matters. Performance trumps all. However, I have a overwhelming feeling that these particular balls shells were just a bit short of being Excalibur quality....lol

[Jman]

Yeah that 3 inch OBM is a scam,but since they came out with it, they have watered down the 16 shot OBM. The 3 inch is better than the 16 shot now.I bought a 2012 OBM 16 shot batch a year ago(it was not wet as it was in my storage building for over a year) and I was highly disappointed. Ive shot 200g cakes that are better and I used to buy OBM every year.Not anymore.Actually Im pretty much done with world class.

It happens a lot in consumer fireworks. My advice to folks is this. If you go to a demo and they shoot something that really stands out, find out if its actual stock or a china sample. If its actual stock, especially NEW items, and they say yeah we got 75 cases of it in last week, its stacked up in the warehouse......back the trailer up to the dock and get as many cases of it as you want. The next shipment may not be as good, so get it while you know its good. Consumer fireworks can be very erratic from shipment to shipment for various reasons.

[N3OQO]

Pricing can be a scam as well. Knowledge is priceless.

[PyroManiacs]

I was just going to say I havent seen a vid of Electric Rain shells, but I did a quick search and found this...

This guy weighs out and compares all the top names in cans.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltDnSzKhzGg

[mguerra]

Last night I shot an Electric Rain and an Excal, both same effect, and asked the audience which they preferred. An audience of two. The wife preferred Excal and her husband liked Electric Rain. I thought the Excal had a little longer hang time and a little bigger break, but it was a slight difference at best. For me, they are equally easy to get and priced pretty similar so I will probably shoot some of both at my shows.

[PyroManiacs]

Hmm, just realized AFTER watching, that he only weighs them outright... not by composition weight.

[mguerra]

As far as weighing shells, the gross weight does not correlate to performance. IF they all have 60 grams of powder, the differing constructions will account for the weight differences. And the construction will determine how hard they break. I have not weighed the powder in Excal vs. Electric Rain but might do that soon, now that I have a gram scale. Might be interesting. But the performance in the sky is really the true test, isn't it?

[PyroManiacs]

Sure is... I, however, would still like to see the pyro weight comparison.... even with all those shells in the vid. :)

[mguerra]

OK, here are the weights for Electric Rain:
Total Shell: 91.3 grams
Lift Charge: 5.9 grams
Comp: 35.9 grams

And for Excal:
Total Shell: 133.7 grams
Lift Charge: 7.5 grams
Comp: 44.0 grams

So that correlates with my observation that Electric Rain is slightly less potent in the sky, it has 81% of the comp as Excal. Still a nice shell, for sure. The Excal is a lot heavier from the clay plugs designed to make it break hard. The Electric Rain had double cardboard top plugs, press fit and glued to make for a hard break, a nice construction. Being 40 grams lighter it needs less lift charge so that makes sense. Just shoot them side by side and see what you think.

[PyroManiacs]

Awesome, thanks for the details!

[Pyro Nation]

EXCALS....LOL... now wonder about these Zeus king of gods shells I have

[PyroManiacs]

EXCALS....LOL... now wonder about these Zeus king of gods shells I have


I had picked those up a couple years ago on my way back from Detroit at some little place in Ohio.

They surprised me!

[PGH_Pyro]

Zeus are decent . look for "just for professionals" can shells . even better .

[displayfireworks1]

I have some of the "just for Professionals". I used some of those in my Collier Sportsman Club shoot last year. In my opinion all of these true canister shells are pretty dam good.

[zmaster725]

I used to buy the Zeus to sell the past few years from a company that we will not disclose since they are not one of Dave's Sponsors. To get back into the title of this thread I have found 3 Zeus shells in the past that were actualy ball shells. Also, not that I cared at the time but the zeus are a re-wrap once they make it into the country.

[Westpapyro]

Zeus are decent . look for "just for professionals" can shells . even better .


I have some of the "just for Professionals". I used some of those in my Collier Sportsman Club shoot last year. In my opinion all of these true canister shells are pretty dam good.
I also just picked up a case of these shells!