ATF License Now or Later

[displayfireworks1]

From youtube public comment
hey dave i follow ur videos a lot and tell u the truth ur videos inspired me and i got my license to buy 1.3 product. but i just do a show once a year for the 4th and i thought about maybe joining a big fireworks company. can i get some advice about joining and maybe some advantages and disadvantages about them. i would apperciate it.

My response
Most private holders of an ATF fireworks license normally does just one show a year. I would recommend working part time for a professional display company; it is a great way to learn more about pyrotechnics. If you want to work for a pro company be ready to work the week of July 4th. This is the week they need the most help. If you cannot work that week they usually do not want to give you work at other times of the year.

My Future video in the works
I receive this type of feedback from time to time on my youtube channel. I am noticing an interesting trend. Years ago, someone would first work for a professional company for years and then eventually get an ATF license to purchase 1.3 fireworks. Now, I hear from people that obtain the ATF 1.3 license before working for a professional company. I would like to think I have been instrumental in making some of that happen. I will soon be producing a video with opinions on this issue. I wanted to post the issue on the forum first to hear from anyone on the forums about this new trend before I make the video. . Do you have a comment or opinion on this new trend?

[VFI_Fireworks]

I look at it like this. I dont care what videos you make but my advise is to those people looking to work. Request to be a responsible person if you become a shooter for them instead of a volunteer. What this does is basically put you on the books. It also gives you the rights to have and possess 1.3 and 1.4 as an extention of that company. And if it's a company that will allow you to purchase under their license as an employee possessor you really dont need to pay to have a type 54. Keep in mind they can take you off if you think you can shoot just once and take advantage of this type of hospitality. I know some who even allow use of Insurance for your own show. Again they wont let you think your going to start your own company on their dime. But again I say check into it use what is free. Type 54's are not just a license to do as you wish. I recall the Ohio issue after getting his 54 this summer... UMMM This is not a trend in my opinion it's just not being informed with enough information to make a better hypothesis. So maybe it would be good to get all the info you can instead of just making the goverment rich on 54's. So people dont want to pay and have the atf questioning and all else that comes with it.

And as your Utube video comment goes there just because you have a 54 dont mean your what a fireworks company is looking for. They look at availability, knowledge, if you'll work for **free**, how long you had your 54 and then if your a nut goof or quack lastly. So it's not that easy but thats my advice.

[displayfireworks1]

That man in Ohio you are referring to is TitaniumsalTDI on the forums. I know exactly who he is. I helped him get his ATF license in Ohio. As far as what he has listed on the forums about getting in trouble, his issues were 1.4 related. He has become the poster boy for all the people that feel someone should not get a 1.3 license. TitaniumsTDI started out praising me for helping so many people get licensed , then he turns around and blames me for whatever situation he placed himself in with the Fire Marshalls office. As far as I can tell, he still has his ATF license because he never picked up his 1.3 order. What ever he did had nothing to do with 1.3 fireworks. One of his friends turned him in for something. He at one time told me I could have whatever 1.3 fireworks he had in storage at Kellners Fireworks. I offered him the opportunity to shoot those fireworks at my sportsman club display. If you search his username on the forums, you will see all of his comments.
His having an ATF 1.3 fireworks license did not get him in any trouble. His behavior and character got him in trouble. To those so eager to embrace an ATF License Fireworks failure, be cautious of this dude.
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I agree with you John having an ATF fireworks license will not make you more desirable to a professional fireworks company. Having a Hazmat drivers license with air brake endorsement sure will.

[ChadEB]

Insurance, D.O.T., permits, A.H.J., costs, distances(maybe) etc... The first 4 are the Biggies if you ask me. I'm still having insurance issues.

[mnb071605]

I know that I am not as experienced as alot of the people that are on here, but here is what I think about the topic, and my experience as well. I am about to turn 28, and I started handling and shooting w/ 1.3 items about 3 years ago with a company that shoots for a baseball team not far from where I live. I was able to work with the product and get some good experience before becoming a licensed shooter. Anytime that I need to obtain 1.3 product I can get in contact with one of the 2 companies that I shoot for that are local. Long story short, my opinion is that someone should have experience handling and shooting 1.3 product before they get the 54 license. Personally, I am happy with just being a licensed shooter at the moment because of the contacts that I have with the 2 companies that are close to where I live.

[extremeaudiopro]

well unfortunately the ATF does not require experience to obtain a type 54. Do i think maybe this should a key requirement? yes. I know its a bit off topic. I know I was asked for my interview about the experience i had. but even the agent said its not required its just nice to know.

to answer you question Dave. i know your videos may have inspired some people. However I know in my case I was already wanting to get my 54 before I even saw your vids. I feel the "itch" has to be there at least a little bit before someone would want to get their 54. your videos may encourage them a little bit more. as for your video telling people how to get their 54. I agree but yet disagree with it. Its a good idea to help someone along and help them obtain it. However I feel that if they can not obtain it on their own like you and I did by simply 1. reading the orange book. 2. calling the ATF with questions. than maybe they shouldn't have it in the first place. This is simply IMO so don't feel as I am bashing you or anyone else for that matter. everyone is entitled to an opinion and can do what we do because of our freedom. keep on keeping on! and be safe no matter what your shooting.

[pyromaniac]

I would say go for your 54 first, then worry about state licenses. It worked for me, in the dreaded state of Ohio! The ATF did indeed haggle me about my state exhibitors license. And my reply was "that for now all my shows will be in PA, and that I been buying 1.4g fireworks for years and taking them over state lines to shoot". It was never brought up again. Although I did eventually get registered for my Ohio Assistants card, which made my local ATF agent very happy. She said that at least now Ohio recognizes me as a safe person to handle 1.3g product. Any Ohioan that wants their type 54 to shoot IN OHIO should read over the red book first! You will definitely think twice about shooting any kind of fireworks in Ohio! Now if you have a bunch of land and a big budget, I say go for it. Join a Ohio club, they'll register you as an assistant and help you with the five shows you need to get the state exhibitors license. You just gotta love Ohio laws. I got about 8 firework stores within a hour of my home, but I'm not allowed to light or store anything! R.I.P titaniumsalTDI.....lol

[mike2255]

I feel that unless you are licensed and insured all the way ( I mean like the big boys, the professional display companies) you should not be able to obtain, store, or fire off 1.3 product in any state. These companies are highly regulated by ATF and STate laws which costs them alot of money each year to keep up with the ever changing laws of each department, as well as them paying alot of money to keep the insurance in place, and to train their employees. These companies go thru yearly training with their employees (which is required by law).SO for somebody to possibly win a bid on a job that does not have all of the proper licenses and/or is completely unfair and I think wrong. Accidents happen when people are using product that they are not properly trained with and do not know ALL of the regulations that need to be in place. And when these accidents happen it puts a bad mark onthe whole industry. So leave the jobs to the properly regulated companies!

[Pyro Nation]

dissagree with you almost 100% Mike... Just because u live in one of the most unfriendly PYRO states, doesn't mean the rest should suffer. In fact I train quite a bit with items at my day job and with firework company I help out with. So, just because I dont have a company I cant be allowed to use 1.3 in a show I may be having that is permitted by the local AHJ because he feels I know my SH*T... Get out of here and quite talking nonsense

[mike2255]

So did you use a display company to get your training then go out and get small license you need in order to shoot that stuff? Im sure the company you worked for or "helped out with" (probably for free) wouldnt appreciate it if you won a show bid over them because you all of a sudden have a license to shoot 1.3 product. When that company has to pay for storage, insurance, regulations, and has to deal with inspeaction and other nonsense from authorities. The display companies pay their debt to society by flaoting the money to do so, so if they need to be regulated a certain way, so should everybody else.

[Pyro Nation]

Whos talking about taking a show from a company. I have my own storage again which was regulated by the ATF and the DEP and have to obide by their rules . Im talking about having a private show for friends and family like I do every year.. Get the permits for it... follow the rules the ATF has set up.

And no I dont work for free I get paid to help.

So get facts straight first off and secondly Shut the PIE hole your talking smack about nothing u really know anything about

[mike2255]

Do you have to pay the insurance costs that a professional display company pays? No! Or I highly doubt it. So no you don't have the same qualifications as a professional company so you are taking money out of their pocket which is their business and highly doubt you are regulated as highly as they are. You are located in pa so I'm assuming the professional company you did work for was zambellis? Maybe I'm wrong? But I highly doubt they would appreciate it if you are out there doing private shows that they could be making money on and don't have to follow the same rules as them. An who are you to talk regulations with me? You don't know my experience or what I know in the business.

[mike2255]

You say you get paid to "help" well if you really want to be in the business then you get paid to be a head pyro of a crew, not to just help

[Pyro Nation]

You are one man who really has no clue on dealings.. Im going to leave it at that simply because you only see one thing and are being completely thick headed

So everyone... NO ONE DO ANY SHOWS JUST FOR FUN OR FOR FRIENDS OR FAMILY.. Because this guy thinks so!!! LOL a big LOL

[mike2255]

Why don't you think of it from the other side for a minute? If this was your professional business and you had other people taking money out of your pocket that were nearly as qualified or as regulated as you were, how would you feel??seems. Kind of unfair doesn't it?

Private display or not, if somebody wants fireworks, and I mean 1.3 product, then they should have to pay the best for them, meaning the professionals.

Who or what hands on experience do you have that says you are considered a professional at this? Besides getting by some small regulations?

[Pyro Nation]

Me doing a show for fun/friends/family would not be taking money out of anyone pocket except my own.

It wouldn't be out of there's.. In fact its encouraged by the company I work for.

But AS I said in previous post.. Im leaving this at what I am saying and no more... Simply because I can tell just by reading your posts you are a thickheaded individually and cant see anything but what you want to see or say

[mike2255]

What I'm saying is that instead of your family/friends/whomever hiring a professional to do the job, they hire you for free. So yes it is taking money out of the pocket of the professional, and I highly doubt if they looked at it that way they'd encourage it. I know my company wouldn't encourage ot

[Pyro Nation]

They wouldnt of hired anyone... IT was my show I was putting on for them by me a professional.. maybe not as many years as sum, but 10 years is quite a few.There would not of been a show. Do you not understand a thing that has been posted... Learn to read

[mike2255]

I don't think it's right, that's my opinion, anybody else want to weigh in on this?

[Steviet000]

I am completely 100% thinking the same as Pyroliffic. If his private show didn't have him, they wouldn't have fireworks then. Thats all I am going to say because it seems this is a lost cause.
Now I will start off with trying to bring this thread back to topic........



Here is my breif fireworks life history.

I think June of last year I started watching your videos on youtube. I had not clue what a cake was or black match, quick match, visco etc. I kept watching your videos and ordered your video in Sept 2011. I joined a club in Feb. and also started my 54 process in Feburary. I had my 54 license in April still only knowing what I learned from Dave's videos. I started working for a professional company in PA the end of June, getting my Ohio assistant license and handling my first 1.3g. I did a ton of shows in 2 weeks. Still not having used my type 54 license. Then I took my Ohio lead exhibitor test a little over a month ago and then finally used my 54 license a week after that. So basically the very first thing I did was get my Type 54 license because I knew it would be something that was important to have in what I wanted to do down the road. I knew being in Ohio there would be hoops to jump through even though it wasn't 100% clear at first what they were. Thanks to joining the club I learned a lot about that and a lot of hands on learning and very creative ways to set up and put on awesome shows. Hope thats the kind of response you were looking for.

[Pyro Nation]

Awesome To hear Steve... Good to see you got all the licensing for Ohio as well. Thats the way to go Grats!!

[extremeaudiopro]

sure ill weigh in.....hey mike have you ever downloaded music from a peer to peer site not paid for it? ok yea I know your not going to answer that because its illegal. But yea by doing so your taking money out of my pocket because that is my business. I am a audio engineer. but ya know what I don't go around making a HUGE deal of it. It is part of life its called business for a reason life happens brother leave it at that. I am pretty sure a pyro company. ( zambelli esp) is not going to worry about a show they would of not made hardly a dime from neway. why not let the people selling the product make a living seeing how most of them are display companies in the first place. because other wise they would of made NO money. because like me I don't have 3k ( usually the min for a show) to put out for a display. They are making the money anyway because even at that price for a display what would they turn as a profit? 1000 bucks MAYBE.

[mike2255]

How about the small display company that might not be as big as zambellis or the guy who is trying to get off his feet?if he's going to make $1,000, that's $1,000. You yourself are in business, are you in the business of turning away money or do you take it however you can get it? Sure a company can make money by selling product to somebody that had a license, but if they can make the same amount or more doing the display themselves, maybe gaining a little name recognition?? It would e worth it to them. Steviet says that he applied for his license and it was received 2 months after joining a club ad submitting the application, after gaining experience from you tube videos?? He doesn't have the shooters a experience you need in NYS and I'm sure he is not regulated like the professional display companies.

[pyromaniac]

Simply put Mike22, your a douche bag just trying to stir up some shit. You should try the PU forum. You'd fit right in!

[mike2255]

Am i not titled to my opinion? just like all of you on here say your opinions about things?

[extremeaudiopro]

well see right there you said it. we live in a wonderful country in which we have freedoms. you have a freedom of speech i which your are definitely using on here. well why do I carry a concealed weapon? because I can it is my right and I have the license to do so. Why do I shoot fireworks? because I can it is a great thing about living in our country and I have the license to do so.

I only do like two shows a year for my family and friends more for me than anyone. however I turn all other business to the company that I buy my pyro from and volunteer my time to him as well. I think thats a fair trade. He gets free labor for shows there for its a nice trade off IMO


Am i not titled to my opinion? just like all of you on here say your opinions about things?

[Steviet000]

Steviet says that he applied for his license and it was received 2 months after joining a club ad submitting the application, after gaining experience from you tube videos?? He doesn't have the shooters a experience you need in NYS and I'm sure he is not regulated like the professional display companies.




lol I just had a lot typed out but then deleted it because I thought why? I'd rather wipe my ass with my hand then keep replying to something pointless and meaning-less. Because your thoughts mean nothing to me about this topic. I tryed to change the topic back but I guess this joker is to bored to let that happen.

[Steviet000]

Awesome To hear Steve... Good to see you got all the licensing for Ohio as well. Thats the way to go Grats!!

Thanks pyroliffic

[displayfireworks1]

Mike2255

I was going to defend you right to have an opinion on this issue. However, my administrative features on the forums are showing me you have two separate usernames. If there is explanation, please message me.

Dave displayfireworks1

[ChadEB]

So what do you think about all this Dave displayfireworks1? Insurance, D.O.T., permits, A.H.J., costs, distances(maybe) etc... The first 4 are the Biggies if you ask me. Plus some of what everyone else has mentioned. I'm not a company I just shoot 1-4 personal shows a year but now that I have me 54 the rules changed and I have to know what they are and follow them for my state.

Side note I love how far off topic and then back to it we can all go.

Be safe and legal regardless of what you do

Chad

[displayfireworks1]

I do not know if I have the energy to type a full response to this post. A video response may be easier. Let me to try to address some of the issues. There are a few directions going on here.
Are newly licensed ATF Type 54 people a threat to established professional fireworks display companies here in United States. The answer is yes. They would prefer no one has a license to use fireworks but them. They call it the Bubba Factor or something along these lines. A small town looking to save money may just use some people already on payroll like a firefighter with an ATF license to purchase 1.3 fireworks and do the annual display themselves. I am finding out this may be occurring more and more as the years go by. Particularly with displays under $5000.00 USD in United States. Organizations designed to protect professional fireworks companies find this a growing threat.
Are newly ATF Type 54 licensed going to sell displays cheaper than a professional company? Possibly, but it will be a lot of hard work and expense. When you do just one fireworks display for profit you now have to follow all the rules, regulations and insurance requirements that all the professional companies follow. Particularly the Department of Transportation rules.
Should an occasional user of fireworks obtain a Type 54 to purchase 1.3 fireworks? The answer is yes. As long as you are not shooting fireworks for profit or are not in commerce with 1.3 fireworks, you are exempt from many of the regulations. There are provisions for an average person to use 1.3 fireworks to celebrate an event. You may still need permission to have the display from local authorities or you may not need permission, which is common in rural areas or private property. Having the ATF Type 54 allows you to legally purchase and transport the 1.3 fireworks. If you encounter any difficulties using fireworks locally, you are at least a licensed individual to legally posses the 1.3 fireworks.
A good example is me in my videos, I shoot fireworks at my sportsman club annually for a private event on private property, we obtain a permit from the township, I invite the fire department, I purchase the fireworks with my ATF license. I shoot the fireworks free of charge. Actually it is not free of charge it usually cost me money. LOL You as a private individual can do the same as me.
What I find interesting is the majority of people against someone obtaining a Type 54 license are individuals that have a Type 54 themselves. For some reason they are properly licensed, but do not think other people are competent to do the same.
The rest of my response on this issue I will have to save for a future video response. Speaking of video responses, this is a good time to let everyone know, if you want to step away from anonymity and make a video response of you giving your opinion on an issue please feel free to do so. I may even welcome back some of the people I banned from this website to come back in person on video with their opinion. I think we need to put a face and name on some of these critics.

[extremeaudiopro]

I will gladly make a video response to this Dave. I work with a pyro company and they agree with me on where I stand.....Is the hobby shooter going to hurt the industry and the pyro companies? absolutely not. what angers me..and the pyro companies the most are the fly by night people out there shooting fireworks for profit and not having all the required items you need to do so.

[mike2255]

This is where I feel the rule is wrong, You say that people that have a Type 54 license that are NOT making a profit on their show or using 1.3 product in commerce are exempt from many of the regulations? why?? if you are using the same product as a professional company I feel you should be regulated the same way. does that not make sense? I find it completely unfair if a person that is supposedly "not making a profit" on a show gets it over somebody who is trying to run a business and make a living. I just dont underatdn how this is allowed. How does somebody determine if you are making a profit or not? Because I highly doubt if you are doing a show for a local township you arent making money on it somewhere.

And having a type 54 allows you to transport the 1.3 product?? How about me? I have to take drug tests, road tests, paper tests, pay $$, get fingerprinted and have background checks so I can have a Commercial DRivers License with a Hazmat endorsement to transport explosives. Does that seem fair? Again its a regulation thing, All who use the same should be treated the same.

If you want to be regulated differently then use a lower class of product, 1.4 is legal in some states, that would be fine for your backyard party.

[extremeaudiopro]

well I have talked to DOT agents. and in reality yes they are only there to police those in commerce. However if you read the DOT book it does say that explosives are placard any quantity. I have a CDL because well that is my job its what I do day to day. I dropped my Haz-mat endorsement at last renewal just because i didn't use it but I will be getting it back....there is a such a grey area on this and it really all depends on which officer you get at the time to what the answer will be. I agree with you on this point acctually. why is shipping them in commerce any different than shipping them in hobby? they are both still on the road and still being transported. and by law it does not matter if you have one shell or 1000 shells it needs a placard. I do think that even the hobby shooter should be Haz-mat licensed and required to have the insurance to transport.....

The only other issue here is you pyro companies might end up shooting yourself in the foot here. If you complain too much about the issue and the hobby guys have to start getting insurance for what we do than your going to see alot of the guys that only do one or two shows a year as a hobby starting to do shows for money and that WILL hurt you. so be careful what you wish for.



This is where I feel the rule is wrong, You say that people that have a Type 54 license that are NOT making a profit on their show or using 1.3 product in commerce are exempt from many of the regulations? why?? if you are using the same product as a professional company I feel you should be regulated the same way. does that not make sense? I find it completely unfair if a person that is supposedly "not making a profit" on a show gets it over somebody who is trying to run a business and make a living. I just dont underatdn how this is allowed. How does somebody determine if you are making a profit or not? Because I highly doubt if you are doing a show for a local township you arent making money on it somewhere.

And having a type 54 allows you to transport the 1.3 product?? How about me? I have to take drug tests, road tests, paper tests, pay $$, get fingerprinted and have background checks so I can have a Commercial DRivers License with a Hazmat endorsement to transport explosives. Does that seem fair? Again its a regulation thing, All who use the same should be treated the same.

If you want to be regulated differently then use a lower class of product, 1.4 is legal in some states, that would be fine for your backyard party.

[Northern Sky]

This is where I feel the rule is wrong, You say that people that have a Type 54 license that are NOT making a profit on their show or using 1.3 product in commerce are exempt from many of the regulations? why?? ..... I just dont underatdn how this is allowed. How does somebody determine if you are making a profit or not? Because I highly doubt if you are doing a show for a local township you arent making money on it somewhere.

Mike, you said it, "You don't understand". There is a difference in terminology here, in commerce and non profit are essentially lumped together. Unless it is a private display paid for by the 54 holder, it is in commerce. If you obtain permits, plan a show, pay for product, pick it up, assemble, shoot it, clean it up for free it is not in commerce. If you accept compensation you are now in commerce. Some will argue that if you eat food that you didn't bring to the event you are in commerce.
If a municipality does a display they are in a completely different category since their "employees" are doing the work.
An individual doing a private show on private ground funded by the license holder is governed differently.
On another note, I am an audio engineer/sales person. If you follow your thinking, it would be illegal for you to buy electronics and install them in your home because you are stealing from me and my industry.

[mike2255]

You are really going to compare dealing with explosives to buying electronics?? Come on smarten up will ya? You see that 6 inch video?? That's what happens when product gets in the wrong hands of the wrong people. I don't care whether you are in commerce or not, when you are dealing with something as dangerous as class a, 1.3 fireworks, you should be highly regulated and not allowed to do it halfway....

[Northern Sky]

You were the one that brought up taking money from pyro companies.

As far as the 6 inch video, you will never see me post a BULL SHIT video like that to give more ammunition to fireworks haters. It shows ill advised and illegal use of regulated BATF product. There is too much video like that readily available on the internet to promote it in a forum like this. We should be promoting the "legal" and proper use/enjoyment of this industry, not showing illegal misuse by morons them.