A state going to all electric firing?

[displayfireworks1]

I am hoping someone of the forums may be able to help with this. I heard rumor that one of the states here in United States is considering making all commercial public fireworks displays electronic. In other words, any public fireworks display in that state must be done electronically. No hand firing.
If you have a web link to it that would be great.

[Tony S]

Hi Dave and members,

New member to the forum, I actually had the pleasure to meet you in person last year at Kellners Demo nights, also helped with your salute barrage. No funds for this years event, hopefully I can return in 2013. Anyway after reading your post, I did find this info for you,

http://www.mass.gov/eopss/docs/dfs/osfm/advisories/2011/20110401-fireworks-and-special-effects.pdf

[displayfireworks1]

Thank you very much for obtaining and posting that information. I noticed the last sentence in the document stating exactly what the rumor is. I did not suspect the state to be Massachusetts.
It is unfortunate but I suspect if this can be successful accomplished in Massachusetts they will try it other states.
Here is my take on it, other opinions are welcome.

Why they will say they are doing it.
They will couch the rationale for this based entirely on public safety. You can imagine how it must have played out.

Why I think they are doing it.
It is brilliant strategy played out by the organizations that represent professional fireworks display companies in United States. There are only some many public fireworks displays in United States. While most larger fireworks companies receive notoriety for the larger displays, it is the 20,000 dollar or less fireworks display that is the real bread and butter of their organization. Problem is more and more of these smaller shows are trending towards local people obtaining ATF licensure and purchasing the fireworks themselves and having local people shoot the display. The number may not be that high, however when you multiple all the smaller displays being shot by local people in United States it adds to a significant amount. Their strategy is electrical firing and safety. They figure not many people can access equipment to completely electrically fire a display. Come to think of it Massachusetts may be a perfect starting place, based on its smaller size and political views.

[displayfireworks1]

I just realized the state that was recently in the new headlines for having all those unexploded shells was Massachusetts. We just talked about them recently passing a law that all professional fireworks used in the state had to be shot electrically. In their supposed effort to make things safer someone made things worse.
People think that using only electrical firing on fireworks eliminates accident or untoward events. It sometimes creates new problems and issues.
Maybe I am overly suspicious but I still feel this electrical firing only law in
Massachusetts is an attempt by the state and organizations that represent large pyrotechnic companies to eliminate the small guy from competing in the 1.3 display business in that state. Bubba with his flair can not even bid on the displays unless he has purchased large firing systems.
In defense of Pyrotecnico that is at the center of all this, even the best of fireworks brands coming out of China have a history of failures or bad lots. Although you would think that in at least one of the 11 sites, a shooter would have checked the area and found the unexploded shells. This further gives credence to the argument the American Firework Standards Laboratory is trying to have all 1.3 fireworks inspected and built to certain specifications before entering the United States. Rumors I am hearing are that China is tired of trying to comply with all the regulations the United States has pertaining to 1.3 fireworks i.e size , salute ratio etc. In turn, the boats bringing the stuff to USA are threatening not to haul any of it because there are multiple stories of boxes mislabeled and misclassified. A reliable source told me a recent inspection found 12 inch shells in a 1.4 consumer fireworks box, attempting to get around the restriction on transportation of larger shells coming out of China. Competition to make fireworks in Liuyang is fierce and apparently quality control is lacking. This why some fireworks companies only purchase well know reliable brands to decrease the chances of these events.

[coachtimmyj]

Good topic Dave. In addition to the state of Mass, there are lots and lots of individual counties, townships, and other municipalities which are mandating all displays be electronically fired. I don't believe there is a push by the "big boys" to snuff out the competition per se. In fact, these types of stipulations are actually tougher for the big boys to swallow than the smaller companies believe it or not. Think of it this way, a company like Pyrotechnico probably shoots 150-200 (or more) displays on the fourth of July alone. A smaller company may shoot, 15. Out of those 150 displays, guaranteed there are a good amount of them which are $10,000 or less and probably 65-70% (no fact here, just going on what the owners of these companies are telling me) of them are hand fire shows. Let's use the same numbers for the smaller company. While company A (Pyrotechnico, Extreme, American, etc) may have more capital to work with, that is a ton of cash for them to lay out to have all that equipment for basically one day. Now, on top of that, they have to train all those different leads, in different states, on how to use the systems to the point where there aren't failures all over the place. Good e-fire crews are much harder to come by than hand light crews. Not meaning it as a knock on hand fire crews by any means, but there is a lot more to worry about, manage, and set up with e-fire shows than handfire shows. Like you said, while it definitely is safer during the display portion of the show, there are added dangers and problems associated with the setup. Never heard of anyone being hit by an errant shell during the setup of a hand fire show. So really, I don't think there is an advantage to larger companies at all with changes like this. Heck, let's face it, you can build an NFPA approved pinboard with thousands of cues for less than $1000 easy. If $1000 is going to put a company out of the industry and keep them from being able to bid shows (remember, that money can be spread across all the shows that crew shoots now) then they either aren't complying with the other rules and regulations (which is how they are staying in business in the first place) or they were bound to fail anyway. An investment in a firing system is the smallest bill a display company will have IF they are already complying with everything else out there. Hell, insurance cost savings alone would pay for the firing system in a couple of years (most insurance companies offer a break if you guarantee you are firing all shows electronically).

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I agree with the regulations coming our way (and there are lots coming believe me) at all. I do e-fire almost every display I shoot and nothing sucks worse than matching and setting up a $3000 show when I know I could have done the same show in a third the time by hand firing. I just wanted to point out I don't believe the fireworks industry in any way is behind any of these changes. This is pure nancy-government b*llsh*t being shoveled down our throats once again.

I also have heard the same things in reference to importing from China. If the DOT had their way, you wouldn't see anything larger than a 5" shell coming over and NO salutes period. As for the shady things happening, wouldn't surprise me in the least to hear someone was trying to sneak 12" shells in a consumer can. Like it or not, we should all be playing by the same rules no matter how stupid the rule may seem (or unfair). If the U.S. would ease up on some of the regulations, I wouldn't have a problem if they shut down importation of display fireworks from China IF American companies would be allowed to make it profitable. Nothing would suit my fancy anymore than to see American shells being used in American displays :) The sad fact of the matter is, the government does not want to see that, else they would ease some of the restrictions on manufacturing and open the game back up.

Just my two cents worth.

BTW, did I mention this was an excellent thread topic :)

[Robertlopez]

if they do go all e-fire i wunder if the government would let the smaller companies rent e-fireing systems if this law passes it would make sense.

[coachtimmyj]

if they do go all e-fire i wunder if the government would let the smaller companies rent e-fireing systems if this law passes it would make sense.

One thing to keep in mind all e-fire doesn't mean every shell has to be ematched. A simple 50 cue ODA could fire a pretty large display with the use of time chains. Less than $500 total in equipment to be e-fire capable. Time chains take a little while to put together but not so long as to be impractical. We fired a $30,000 display using less than 200 cues on one of the shows this past season utilizing time chains and maximizing the use of what cues we had available.

[Pyro Nation]

Thats something I have not messed with. I have been efiring only for a few years now, but often thought of using the time chains. Guess Something I should start looking at more. Or just buy more Cobra modules...lol

[Palermitano2]

Pyrotecnico is being set up I dont care what anyone says! They came into an area where there is only 1 other Big player and my opinion is SABOTAGE..Ya I know bold statement ......its a conspiracy...and I beleive even the state firemarshall is licking his chops pulling pyrotecnicos license...I want to know how many other pyrotecnico shows nation wide had issues? it was only Massachusetts they found 7??? Sorry for the rant I am Just upset with the situation and I hope Pyrotecnico fights it and the truth comes out..........

[coachtimmyj]

I couldn't speak for Pyrotecnico as I've never shot for them, but I know I shot a show for Extreme on the 3rd and had 19 roundtrippers. Yes, that is high, I know, but I just wanted to say it does happen sometimes. Only takes one bad batch of shells to get out and you have a location with a crapload of bad shells (which is what happened to this area for Extreme). Not saying sabotage or conspiracy is out of the question, as I have said many times, nothing surprises me in this industry, but without knowing the shoot sites or crews involved, it would be tough for me to move in that direction based on "there is only one other big player". Are you suggesting someone from the other company went out to each shoot site and planted shells to be found later? Or are you suggesting the whole story of left behind shells is fabricated somehow?

[Palermitano2]

I couldn't speak for Pyrotecnico as I've never shot for them, but I know I shot a show for Extreme on the 3rd and had 19 roundtrippers. Yes, that is high, I know, but I just wanted to say it does happen sometimes. Only takes one bad batch of shells to get out and you have a location with a crapload of bad shells (which is what happened to this area for Extreme). Not saying sabotage or conspiracy is out of the question, as I have said many times, nothing surprises me in this industry, but without knowing the shoot sites or crews involved, it would be tough for me to move in that direction based on "there is only one other big player". Are you suggesting someone from the other company went out to each shoot site and planted shells to be found later? Or are you suggesting the whole story of left behind shells is fabricated somehow?

My oppinion from my experiance with the other player is that I would not doubt if they planted them. And the state firemarshall is in on the act.

[akrat17350]

I couldnt agre more, coming from someone who lives in mass. I think this sate is jsut cater to the big companies because its less risk or possible less money then the smaller companies but thats jsut my opnion

[coachtimmyj]

My oppinion from my experiance with the other player is that I would not doubt if they planted them. And the state firemarshall is in on the act.

I'd love to hear your experiences which make you feel this way, pm or phone call (I think I gave you my number before) is cool if you don't want to share them here. I have to assume I know the company you are referring to and it's hard to believe they would have to stoop to such levels to keep business in that area. 'Course like I said, nothing surprises me any more.


I couldnt agre more, coming from someone who lives in mass. I think this sate is jsut cater to the big companies because its less risk or possible less money then the smaller companies but thats jsut my opnion

But Pyrotecnico IS one of the biggest around so you would think the state would be catering to them as well, don't understand your argument.

[indianahx]

I wasn't going to respond because I dont live in the area and have never had any dealings with any of the companies supposedly involved.......so maybe that gives me an outsiders unbiased point of view here.

I find it hard to believe that someone would have the time and the wherewithal to go out and research what shells another company is firing and purchase those exact same shells. Then they would go to the display shoot and watch the show and then wait for the last person of the shooting company to leave and then walk about tossing live product on the ground and then go back and start rubbing their hands together with a sinister laugh like mr burns from the Simpsons.

Could it be done? I guess so. I just think highly unlikely. That person who would have willingly thrown shells around for innocent people to stumble on is more dangerous to me than the untrained because they KNOW what would potentially happen with those shells. I don't think anyone who is 1.3 trained would ever think about doing that unless they are just a sick sick individual.

So I guess until the person who threw shells out comes forward and says "yeah I did it, and this is why...." well never know what is going on and everything said here is purely skepticism

[PyroManiacs]

I find it hard to believe that someone would have the time and the wherewithal to go out and research what shells another company is firing and purchase those exact same shells. Then they would go to the display shoot and watch the show and then wait for the last person of the shooting company to leave and then walk about tossing live product on the ground and then go back and start rubbing their hands together with a sinister laugh like mr burns from the Simpsons.

Could it be done? I guess so. I just think highly unlikely. That person who would have willingly thrown shells around for innocent people to stumble on is more dangerous to me than the untrained because they KNOW what would potentially happen with those shells. I don't think anyone who is 1.3 trained would ever think about doing that unless they are just a sick sick individual.

So I guess until the person who threw shells out comes forward and says "yeah I did it, and this is why...." well never know what is going on and everything said here is purely skepticism


I totally agree and this makes sense, even AFTER working for the government for 8 years. Ive seen many "grey area" situations. I just cant see something like fireworks politics falling into a "grey area"/"black ops" situation to that extent. But then again, I dont know much about the fireworks industry. Im just going on pure logistics.

Politics Suck!! but whatevs!

[akrat17350]

But Pyrotecnico IS one of the biggest around so you would think the state would be catering to them as well, don't understand your argument.

no my argumen is that they cater to the bigger companies and pyrotecnico does a lot of shoots in many towns, but that could be in danger because of what happened this past fourth

[Palermitano2]

I wasn't going to respond because I dont live in the area and have never had any dealings with any of the companies supposedly involved.......so maybe that gives me an outsiders unbiased point of view here.

I find it hard to believe that someone would have the time and the wherewithal to go out and research what shells another company is firing and purchase those exact same shells. Then they would go to the display shoot and watch the show and then wait for the last person of the shooting company to leave and then walk about tossing live product on the ground and then go back and start rubbing their hands together with a sinister laugh like mr burns from the Simpsons.

Could it be done? I guess so. I just think highly unlikely. That person who would have willingly thrown shells around for innocent people to stumble on is more dangerous to me than the untrained because they KNOW what would potentially happen with those shells. I don't think anyone who is 1.3 trained would ever think about doing that unless they are just a sick sick individual.

So I guess until the person who threw shells out comes forward and says "yeah I did it, and this is why...." well never know what is going on and everything said here is purely skepticism

Everything you say is accurate with 1 exception, You have no Idea because you are not from the area what the parties involved are capable of....including the fire marshall.....

[PyroJW]

Very good post and alot of info from several people.

[n1pj]

I liked the old days of hand firing shows. We can't even have flares on site anymore in MA. Fourth of July the State Fire Marshal and State Police DOT where bumping heads over flares. The state fire marshal was trying to take some flares and the DOT was trying to tell him to leave them since he said the flares were from a safety kit of a crew members car. Some of my friends had said that some fire marshals were searching personal vehicles onsite for flares. First thing I do before I leave for a MA show is to make sure I have no flares in anything I take. If I am shooting in NH or VT I will throw a handful of flares in my tool box before I leave the house. 80 Percent of my shows are in MA so I haven't hand lit a show since last New Years eve over a year ago.